Oct. 6, 2025

Free Speech is a Core American Value

Free Speech is a Core American Value
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Season 2

Kenin Spivak is an attorney, founder and chairman of SMI Group. He explains that the Left’s suppression of free speech reached its nadir during the Biden administration. We continue to learn of its Orwellian initiatives to censor, deplatform, demonetize and suppress views with which it disagreed. Globally, we are seeing unprecedented repression of conservative voices by democratically elected governments, including England, France and Brazil and the European Union isn’t much better.

Bill Martinez Live is broadcast live Mondays at 3PM ET on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Bill Martinez is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Bill Martinez Live Podcast is also available on https://www.billmartinezshow.com,  Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Transcript
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The topics and opinions express in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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those of w FORCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

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make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,

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explicit or implied shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio

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or it's employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should

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be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing

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w FOCY Radio.

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Well, hello and welcome Bill Martinez here. Great to have

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you with us sharing a part of your day. For

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more info on the show, you can go to Bill

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Martinez Live dot com.

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Well.

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Our First Amendment of our Constitution has no doubt been

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in the crosshairs of many liberals, and it's been rather frustrating.

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But just for the record, here let me remind you

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what it says in our constitutions. Congress may not make

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any law that sets up any religion or interferes with

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any religious practice. Congress may not make any law that

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diminishes the freedom of speech, or the freedom of the press,

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or the right of the people to assemble peacefully or

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the right of the people to petition the government to

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make things right if it has caused them harm. That

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is the first Amendment in its totality. And we're going

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to focus particularly on free speech as a core American value.

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And there is a reason, I believe paramount and why

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our founders focus so much on free speech and made it.

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I mean, of the first ten amendments to our Constitution,

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this was the first one. And I believe, you know,

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not only from practical experience, the founders were motivated to

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make sure that free speech was headlined, but also you know,

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when you think about its broad implication in terms of

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intellectualizing the electorate, I believe any limit of free speech

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dumbs us all down. Though you may argue that sometimes

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free speech can be harsh speech, I understand that. I

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think that free speech should come with a responsibility, and

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I think that is something that we still try to

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debate and work out in our culture even to this day.

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But no doubt that, you know, particularly under the Biden administration,

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free speech was attacked on many levels. Kennon Spevak is

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going to be joining us. He is the founder and

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chairman of the SMI Group and international consulting firm, and

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it contributed to real politics and Claremont Institute's The American Mind.

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Ken and welcome, Michelle. Good to have you with us.

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Bill, Thanks for having me back.

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Well, let's talk talk about free space. Is you write

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for American value? How do you see it?

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I say it as the basis of all our liberties.

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And if you don't mind, I want to add to

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what you did when you read the First Amendment. The

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First Amendment says Congress shall make no law, abridging and

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then it goes on from there. Well, everyone needs to

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understand that the United States Supreme Court has repeatedly held

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that though the words are Congress shall make no Law,

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that the First Amendment applies equally to the executive branch

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of the federal government in its actions, and to the

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actions of the state government, governments and municipalities. So the

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First Amendment is really much broader than can be seen

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by just reading the plain words Congress shall make no law.

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And the reason the Supreme Court expanded the application of

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the First Amendment first to the executive branch and then

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to the state's and municipalities is because it recognized that

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that was the intention that was the meaning given those

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words when they were first written so many years ago.

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Without the First Amendment, we are no better than that

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which government decides we can talk about. And that really

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is what was happening during the Biden administration. The suppression

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of free speech, particularly on social media, but not only

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on social media. Wasn't just directed to COVID, you know, Bill,

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So many people talk about what the Biden administration did

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is limiting dissenting views on COVID, and it did, but

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the Biden administration also suppressed dissenting views on many issues

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on the economy, on international trade, even humor directed at

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the Biden administration. That's something we can never again allow

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to happen. But I'm not so sure we're ready to

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stop it from happening again.

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I appreciate that. And actually you could actually go before

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the Trump administration. And this began to raise its ugly

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head during the Obama years, did it not?

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It did? It started during the last year of the

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Obama administration. It actually continued below the radar during the

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Trump administration. Within the deep state last year or two

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of the Obama administration, a number of agencies were created

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or reconstituted within particularly the Department the Department of Homeland Security,

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to a lesser degree in the Department of Justice. Those

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agencies or those bureaus within the Department of Homeland Security,

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and by the way, one even in the Department of State,

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began to abuse the authority conferred on them to prevent

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problems with cyber security, problems with foreign governments intruding into

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US cyberspace, and they began to use their authority to

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limit the rights of American citizens to speak their minds

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in the cyber arena during the Trump administration. And this

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really does show why, or one of the reasons why

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in the second Trump administration he has been so intent

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on ensuring that he controls not just the department heads,

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but deeper down into those departments, because during the first

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Trump administration, these same agencies continued to try to control

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US citizens speech, most especially on social media platforms, but

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to a lesser degree in other forms of media as well. Well.

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You know, I go back with the Obama administration with

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what he did to the tea parties for example. You know,

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this was a wink and a nod to lowest learner,

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and he directed in a sense you might say subtly

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if not directly to do something about the Tea Party,

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and he squelched them in response to some mid term

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you know, ambitions, and he saw what was happening with

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the tea parties. They were gaining so much momentum, and

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so he made sure the I R S did not

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give them, you know, tax exemption status that they had requested,

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which you know was routinely given before, wasn't even a problem.

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In fact, even Obama's half brother was I think you

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got tax exemption, you know, within six months, which was

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ahead of schedule. And you know, just some shenanigans that

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went on. But the net result, ken is that even

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to this day, this has affected free and fair elections

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because it really reduced the effectiveness of the Tea Party

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Tea Party efforts, and I maintain it's probably been eight

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or nine voting cycles that were affected as a result

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of that.

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You're completely right, and let's just remind your audience. Lois

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Lerner was a mid level executive within the Internal Revenue Service,

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and not only the Tea Party, but more broadly, she

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had an animist toward conservative organizations. There are basically two

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types of tax exempt organizations. The one that people sometimes

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even know. The number four is called a five oh

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one C three, and that's an organization to which donations

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are tax deductible and the organization doesn't pay taxes. There

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are other type of tax exempt organizations, particularly those involved

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in politics, that may not pay taxes, but donations are

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not tax deductible. Lois Learner went after five oh one

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C three organizations that she thought were waiting too close

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to the political organization status on the right. She never

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did that for organizations on the left, and the result

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of what she did was to delay, deny, and even

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revoke five oh one C three tax status to a

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lot of social organizations and some religious organizations that had

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viewpoints she found anathema to her far left perspective. It

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was used to diminish the effectiveness of the Tea Party,

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and more broadly, it was used to diminish the fundraising

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capability of a lot of social organizations and organizations of

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faith that exactly weren't far enough left for Lois Learner.

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Lois Learner ultimately was called before Congress to testify. After

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giving a little bit of a speech for her position,

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she then claimed the Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate herself.

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Now those of us who went to law school. I

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went to law school, know that if you choose to

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speak at all in a forum, you've waived your Fifth

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Amendment right not to continue to speak. But she was

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allowed this oddity of speaking when she wanted to speak

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and claiming the Fifth Amendment when she didn't want to speak,

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got off without any consequence for her horrific actions. I

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did a lot of damage to a lot of conservative

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organizations and organizations of faith, and Bill, I think you're

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right in the Obama administration really energized this movement to

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limit the free speech of conservatives and more broadly people

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of faith right.

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And the thing is is that it was all in

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a sense of like a bit of a groundbreaker because

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they got away with it, and Lois Learner, of course

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retired with a golden parachute, no consequence whatsoever. She's living

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happily ever after. And of course probably the statue of

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limitations has passed, so she is not going to be

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held libel. And all we can do at this point

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is just remind everybody that this is what she specifically did.

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And you mentioned, you know, the deep state that was

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in operation under the first Trump administration from what I

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understand about four thousand operatives that were in the Obama

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administration before completing his term. Obama reassigned them into government employment.

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So he kind of, you know, in a sense, set

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in this battalion of moles into the into the government operation,

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the government bureaucracy, to serve as a safety net, so

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to speak, against what he perceived as radical Trump policies.

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Yeah. I don't know the number, and you may well

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be right, but I do know that in the Biden administration,

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more than eighty federal agencies and many hundreds of senior

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federal officers participated in the censorship enterprise. During that administration,

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a federal district court judge issued an injunction to stop

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that activity, found it reprehensible and indefensible. His injunction was

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largely upheld by the appeals court, but the US Supreme

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Court then reversed and took the position that the plaintiffs,

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the state of Missouri, and a lot of private players,

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hadn't demonstrated that the Biden administration was in fact stopping

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free speech, and that it wasn't possible that the social

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media companies wouldn't have done it on their own even

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without the federal government intrusion. That was a sad day

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for conservatives. Justice Barrett I don't think acquitted herself well

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in that decision. I don't think her factual analysis was correct.

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I don't think her legal analysis was correct. But the

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fact of the matter is we have a system. I

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can't pick and choose which Supreme Court decisions I like

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in the sense of which should be enforced. So I

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recognize her right and the right of the majority on

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that court to make the decision they made. I just

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wish they had not done so well.

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How embarrassed they must be now when you have Mark

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Zuckerberg coming out and saying, hey, they made me do it,

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and you have Google saying the same thing. You know,

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X was under pressure before it is known as Twitter,

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before Elon Musk bought them. And Elon Musk I think

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single handedly did more for free speech than any other

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person in modern history in purchasing Twitter. Because when he

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did that, suddenly we could it opened up the door

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for free speech once again. It was number one. It

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was refreshing, and you know, we could kind of breathe

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again for a moment. But then afterwards, Kennon, we get

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these reports, you know, from you know, from Zuckerberg and

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and Google and these other platforms saying, you know, the

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FBI was visiting them. Well, come on, give me a break,

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you know, you know, at that point that really makes

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the argument that Justice Barrett put forth even worse.

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Yet, Yeah, you know, Elon Musk did us all a

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great service. Went together with Matt Tayibe on Substack and

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Barry Weisse. He allowed them to publish proof of what

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the government had done with x or Twitter than Twitter

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in suppressing speech. Look, the facts are what the plaintiffs

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alleged that they were. It's possible that these left leaning

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social media might have suppressed some of the speech even

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without Biden administration pressure. But there's no doubt that the

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coercion the pressure. Remember Joe Biden and then Press Secretary

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Jensaki publicly said that the social media were killing people

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talking about the COVID side of this, and that action

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had to be taken, and that the social media had

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to take action. When the President of the United States

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and his press secretary threatened to take action, if you don't,

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it's difficult not to see coercion, and there was coercion,

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and Justice Barrett in a conservative majority that went along

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with her, or some of the conservatives that went along

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with her, just as Kavanaugh in particular, they were wrong,

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plaints were right, and we all paid the price for it.

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Yeah, I mean who killed who?

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You know?

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Ken, And I'm going to tell you I spent more

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time in YouTube jail because we had experts on medical

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professionals reporting from frontline experience what was going on with COVID,

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and it was, you know, deemed to be an offense

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to the social media community. And here it is. I mean,

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our motivation, our heart was, hey, we're being done down here.

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We're not getting all the information, you know, whether it

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had to do with the vaccine or you know, all

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the procedures and everything that were being thrust upon us

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by doctor Fauci and the who and you know, and

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here it was. They were doing this all on a

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basis of an executive authorization use. And then the basis

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of an EAU is there. First of all, there can't

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be another in order to execute and deem AEAU. You

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have to make sure that there's not another product available

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to people that would be able to trigger an EAU.

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And there was, by evidence and by reports of these experts,

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there were there was products on the shelf that could

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be used to deal with this problem. And of course

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we know that now today with a little argument. You know,

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these doctors have proven themselves. But you know many of

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these docs as well, ken and they were subject to

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all kinds of threat of losing their license. And I

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know of two docks down in Imperial Valley in California.

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They had to go before the tribunal, the Star Chamber

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in California and an answer, and they they wrote a

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book that they you know, they treated over ten thousand patients.

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Nobody went on a ventilator, nobody, nobody went to a hospital.

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Not one died ten thousand.

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So let me make two points. One, California past the

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rule that doctors were not permitted under thread of loss

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of license to give any advice or discuss with their

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patients any position inconsistent with the Fauci position on COVID vaccines. Second,

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I think that it really is a First Amendment absolutist,

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which I am. I really want to take a step

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back because whether a listener one hundred percent agreed with

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what doctor Fauci and some other physicians or many other

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physicians were saying about vaccines, and alternative treatments, agreed with

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none of it, or was somewhere in the middle. I

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don't think that point of view makes any difference at

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all to how wrong the Biden administration was let alone

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the state of California in suppressing people's rights to have

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and discuss other views. Governor Ron DeSantis posted a forum

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at which doctors were discussing a range of views on

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COVID that was censored. That was taken off of you two.

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There are examples of other leading physicians, including some who

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are now in the Department of Health and Human Services

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in very senior positions, who wrote op eds, or who

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issued tweets, or who discussed sometimes even just marginally different

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views than the doctrine approved by doctor Fauci, And because

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of Biden administrator excuse me, Biden administration suppression, those views

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were taken down. I don't care if they were right.

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I don't care if they were wrong. I don't care

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if I agree or disagree with them. In America, we

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are supposed to be a country based on the First

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Amendment and based on the writer free speech. Justice Lewis

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Brandeis said in the nineteen twenties, and many Justice of

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the US Supreme Court since then have made the point

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that the antidote for the remedy for speech with which

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we do not agree, even speech which may turn out

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to be factually incorrect, is more speech, exactly, more facts,

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more discussion. So you know, Bill, you and I have

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discussed COVID in the past, and I know that you

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and I don't hold identical views on what would have

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been the best remedies for COVID. What we hold the

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identical view on the right of people of all views

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regarding the best remedies for COVID being able to have

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their say and not be penalized for having their say.

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But that's not what happened. And there's no way of

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making what happened be right or be constitutional exactly.

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Well, and look what happened.

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One point two million people, one point two one point

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four million people died here in America. Could any of

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those been saved as result? I mean, New York was

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you know, they're running around with their hair on fire

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and Governor Cuomo is taking advisement you know, from the

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administration at the time, was the Trump administration, and which

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was doctor Fauci and Deborah Burks were leading the cause

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here and somehow he comes up with the conclusion to

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take people who already are susceptible and stack them in

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a in a nursing home, which exacerbated the death of

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some fifteen thousand American citizens.

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And nobody wants to talk about.

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That, you know, because whenever you bring it up, you know,

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especially some of these officials, including government, former Governor Cuomo,

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they just kind of hang their heads without you know, admitting,

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look at we we were in air. You know, what

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did we learn, you know, from this experience, and what

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it seems that we're learning is not anything from a

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policy viewpoint, where you know, government is coming in and

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saying and reaffirming. What we're learning is from conversations like

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you are having like this, like you and I are

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having like this right now.

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Yeah, you know, government officials like anyone else, read the newspaper,

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read social media. If opposing views are suppressed, if doctors

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are prevented from discussing opposing views, then they're not going

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to learn anything. You don't learn anything by being given

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only one perspective. So I let me give you two

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examples of things we now know without question. We're false,

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but we're suppressed and censored by the Biden administration. One,

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we know that for young children, the risk of the

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COVID vaccine at least approximated any benefit from the COVID vaccine.

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Some would say the risk was higher, some would say

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the risk was little bit lower, but clearly the COVID

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vaccine was not an obvious remedy for children to prevent

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COVID because of the side effects, and because this was

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equally important, children who contracted COVID seldom had any particularly

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bad symptoms of the COVID. Second thing we know is

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that it's now universally believed as being likely, right, won't

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go so far as to say universally believed as being certain,

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but universally believed as being likely. That the COVID vaccine

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originated at the Wuhan facility in China, exactly. Saying that

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was banned during most of the Biden administration, and banned

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not because they said just it was false, but it

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was Chinese bashing. And you know, we've spent a bunch

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of time here on COVID, But today, in twenty twenty five,

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where COVID is becoming a thing of the past, we

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see far more problems with free speech over purportedly bashing

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marginalized minorities, not being supportive of minorities. We're seeing a

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lot of people on the left, and particularly young people

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on the left, have the view that free speech means

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you're free to say whatever you want to say that

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I agree with, or maybe some things I don't completely

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agree with, but you certainly can't say anything that might

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not be nice about minorities, or trans people, or gay people,

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or fat people or anyone who I think needs protection.

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And the situation with COVID had similarities to what we're

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seeing today. What we're seeing today is a banning of

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free speech, a use of violence to prevent free speech

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on campus that's even broader than what we saw during

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the Biden COVID.

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Era exactly well.

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And the thing is, you know, as I mentioned in

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the introduction, Kennan, is that it really dumbs down the populace.

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And in the process of doing that, it frustrates, It

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makes us angry, We forget about what it is to

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reason with one another. As you'd mentioned early on, that

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we should be able to have these discussions with one

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another because I believe that each of us brings a

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unique perspective, you know, to the debate, which can enhance

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the conversation and the policy in the in its final practice.

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But when everything is an offense because you're speaking, you know,

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speaking the truth. I mean, look what happened here recently.

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You know with Charlie Kirk. You know, he's bringing he's

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bringing the truth as he understands, and he's passionate about

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he brings it to these universities that have become I mean,

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these universities you think of all places should be the

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you know, should should be the vanguard of you know,

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search truth, search for truth and.

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Open speech.

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And now it's become so weaponized and angry that they

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killed Charlie Kirk.

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So two points one on Friday, and you mentioned it.

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I had an article in American Mind, which is the

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Claremont Institute publication, and it focused on the results of

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the Fire Survey of college campuses. So Fire is the foundation.

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They changed their name, but I think it's now the

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Foundation for Individual Rights, and it looks at college campus

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First Amendment issues. It just recently completed a survey of

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sixty eight, five hundred and ten students at about two

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hundred and sixty different campuses. Its top ten schools still

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scored only in the sea range on their scale. Their

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number one school, Claremont McKenna, was a B minus, but

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they made the point that's only because they rounded certain

397
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scores up, or it would have been a C plus.

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How horrible that the top ten schools are only a

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00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:13.640
C and most of the schools got an F. And

400
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that's because college campuses have become anathema to the notion

401
00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:22.319
of free speech. And I think it's worth looking at

402
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:25.400
the Fire Report, or looking at my article in American

403
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:29.319
Mind which summarizes the Fire Report and some other polling

404
00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:34.000
to look at how far away we've gotten from free

405
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speech on college campuses. A majority of liberals supported the

406
00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:42.759
use of violence to prevent speakers from talking about a

407
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:47.640
number of issues that were polled and taking conservative views.

408
00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:52.119
But I've got to tell you a majority of conservative students,

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00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:55.519
much smaller majorities, but still a majority. In one case

410
00:27:55.799 --> 00:28:01.039
fifty one percent oppose allowing speakers from the left to

411
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talk about issues that they found anathema to their conservative perspective.

412
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:10.039
And bell, let me put this in perspective for a second.

413
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In broader polling over the last year or two that

414
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isn't focused on gen Z roughly twenty five percent of

415
00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:21.559
far left people believe that violence can be justified to

416
00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:26.319
stop people from talking about far right or not just

417
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:30.519
far right conservative issues exactly. A much smaller percent of

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00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:35.240
conservatives have the same view, five six seven percent at most,

419
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but among gen Z you had as much as a

420
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:43.680
majority in this fire survey. It is very troubling that

421
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:48.960
gen Z conservatives who've gone to school in doctrinated by

422
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these far left teachers from the American Federation of Teachers

423
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and the National Education Association, who believe in all these

424
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:02.119
far left dogma. They may grow up having conservative perspectives,

425
00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:06.799
but it seems that they're having them altered, as if

426
00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:11.640
the DNA has been altered, altered by their far left teachers,

427
00:29:13.079 --> 00:29:16.799
and they're really messed up. They're losing conservative perspectives. So

428
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:22.200
I am very happy that adult conservatives understand that people

429
00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:26.240
are allowed to say things that they the conservatives, disagree with.

430
00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:29.160
I'm not so happy about what's happening in gen Z.

431
00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:34.240
And let's just make one related point. So I am

432
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:39.759
a strong supporter. I've written extensively in support of what

433
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:46.119
the Israeli administration has done to counter the horrible Kamas attack.

434
00:29:46.519 --> 00:29:50.680
Two years ago on October seventh, when Hamas broke across

435
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:54.759
the lines in the Gaza Strip and killed and took

436
00:29:54.799 --> 00:30:00.559
hostage Israeli civilians, and I support the Netunyahu governments efforts

437
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:04.839
to end Hamas's rule in the Gaza Strip. I recognize

438
00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:07.880
that a lot of Americans disagree with me. I think

439
00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:10.440
they're wrong. I think they have a right to disagree

440
00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:13.480
with me. I think they have a right to speak out.

441
00:30:13.839 --> 00:30:16.079
I don't think they have a right on college campuses

442
00:30:16.119 --> 00:30:20.200
to bar Jewish students or to do violence to Jewish students,

443
00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:22.799
but I do think they have a right to peacefully

444
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:27.359
demonstrate on college campuses or off college campuses. I don't

445
00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:31.039
think people who have pro Palestinian views just views and

446
00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:35.519
not talking about material support for terrorists, but views should

447
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:38.160
be barred from the United States. And I do think

448
00:30:38.200 --> 00:30:42.839
that Trump administration risks going too far in prohibiting or

449
00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:48.519
requiring universities to prohibit those with these pro Palestinian views

450
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:51.480
from being able to have their say. And that's because

451
00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:54.160
I believe in the First Amendment, I believe the remedant

452
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:58.839
to Palestinian speech with which I disagree is to allow

453
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:03.640
those who disagreed have their say that. The reason I'm

454
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.200
making this point is whether it's COVID where you and

455
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:11.039
I may have somewhat different views, whether it's Palestinians, right,

456
00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:12.599
I don't think you and I have different views, but

457
00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:15.359
a lot of Americans and I have different views. People

458
00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:18.720
should be able to speak about things where I think

459
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:23.359
they're completely wrong. That's what the First Amendment is all about.

460
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:26.200
And if we don't get back to that meeting of

461
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:29.799
the First Amendment, we are putting at risk the entire

462
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:31.240
American experiment.

463
00:31:32.200 --> 00:31:34.880
I agree with you, this is all under threat. But

464
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:39.160
you know there needs to be I guess rules of engagement.

465
00:31:39.559 --> 00:31:42.640
We need to be reminded of civility, that there's a

466
00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:47.039
way in which to disagree. But when you have polling

467
00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:50.039
like what you referred to, and I'm glad you brought

468
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:52.640
that up, I mean two of the people on the

469
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:56.799
top of that list, the assassination list that too many

470
00:31:56.839 --> 00:31:58.960
people think about. I mean, look at the damage that

471
00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:05.160
was done to America with nineteen hijacker, nineteen terrorists. I

472
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:08.839
mean we're talking, you know, I don't know, potentially millions

473
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:12.759
of young kids here who have been indoctrinated that think

474
00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:17.799
it's okay, to kill the President of the United States

475
00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:19.400
or Elon.

476
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.440
Musk, right you're referring to, and I actually am looking

477
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:27.279
at it here. It's the National Contagion Research Institute at

478
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:32.720
Rutgers University study and at risk of emulating Mark Levin,

479
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:37.640
I'll hold the papers in my hand. Fifty fifty point

480
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:40.759
two percent of those who self identify as left of

481
00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:45.720
center think that there is justification for murder of Elon Musk.

482
00:32:46.119 --> 00:32:50.160
Fourteen percent of those who identify themselves as right of

483
00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:54.000
center hold the same view. Now, that's a very big difference,

484
00:32:54.039 --> 00:32:58.160
but fourteen percent is fourteen percent too many. Fifty six

485
00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:02.079
percent of those who identify as left of center favor

486
00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:07.000
or believe there's justification to murder Donald Trump, believe it

487
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:10.440
or not. Twenty percent of those who identify as right

488
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:14.000
of center hold the same view. One last number from

489
00:33:14.000 --> 00:33:17.559
that same study, fifty nine point six percent of those

490
00:33:17.599 --> 00:33:21.160
who identify as left of center believe that there is

491
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:26.279
justification to destroy Tesla dealerships and protests, and twenty three

492
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:29.079
point six percent of those who are right of center. Now,

493
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:35.200
property violence is not murder, but property violence also, in

494
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:39.279
my mind, cannot be justified as a means of advancing

495
00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:43.160
the political dialogue. And when you said that there is

496
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:49.279
right ways and wrong ways to articulate your disagreement, Yes,

497
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:52.480
but I'm going to say that even when articulated the

498
00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:58.799
wrong way, articulated with hate speech, articulated with as spam

499
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:03.920
Spannenberger did as a call to let your rage flow,

500
00:34:04.440 --> 00:34:08.280
I still support the First Amendment right of people to

501
00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:15.599
speak out in ways that are really inappropriate, unkind uncalled for.

502
00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:20.679
What I don't support is property violence. I don't support

503
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:25.079
when protests seven percent of the BLM protests in the

504
00:34:25.119 --> 00:34:30.159
summer of twenty twenty turned violent that included arson, looting,

505
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:35.079
and physical altercations that didn't necessarily result in killing anyone.

506
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:39.079
But those are not okay. Some of my friends on

507
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:43.679
the left and some of my centrist friends keep pointing

508
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:49.280
to data that Cato Institute and other research organizations have

509
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:53.360
published that show that over the last thirty years, there

510
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:58.880
have been more political assassinations that were ideologically motivated by

511
00:34:58.920 --> 00:35:01.480
people on the right, and there have been more total

512
00:35:01.639 --> 00:35:05.360
deaths caused by people on the right. And that's largely,

513
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:08.400
but not only, because of the Oklahoma City bombing that

514
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:11.119
killed one hundred and sixty eight America. Some of those

515
00:35:11.159 --> 00:35:15.320
statistics I think are somewhat questionable. I think there's something

516
00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:19.880
of a bias in treating non ideological violence is ideological.

517
00:35:20.440 --> 00:35:23.079
But I do think it's clear that people on the

518
00:35:23.199 --> 00:35:26.960
right over the last thirty years, for ideological purposes, have

519
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:29.880
killed more than people on the left. And I think

520
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:32.679
those centrists and those people on the left who point

521
00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:37.360
to those statistics are correct or correct enough, and that

522
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:39.159
there's too much violence from the right.

523
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:43.760
I'm I'm not sure I agree with that, Kennon, but

524
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:47.800
that's okay. But the fact of the matter is is

525
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:52.519
we got people killing people here, and one is unacceptable.

526
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:54.280
I don't care if you're the right or you're in

527
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:58.360
the left, and you have to do a dive and

528
00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:02.079
drill down in terms of what's the genesis of all this,

529
00:36:02.679 --> 00:36:05.199
what is promoting all this? You mentioned, you know, these

530
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:09.920
these radical professors, these very liberal professors that are indoctrinating

531
00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:14.480
our kids. You look at, you know, the way UH

532
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:18.719
speech is being uh conducted in these social media platforms.

533
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.800
You you look at what what is contributing to these

534
00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:26.039
thought processes, these video games and all this. I mean,

535
00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:28.880
I think you can take a look and consider all

536
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:32.840
these things in terms of what's contributing to this this

537
00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:38.119
anger and this acceptability that undermines, uh, you know, the

538
00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:41.920
Constitution because you know, I always say when when things

539
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:43.880
are awry, you got to go back to the beginning.

540
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:47.599
And I think that we need to revisit. And you

541
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:50.119
know what is what it was the start of this country?

542
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:53.719
What was this great American idea about? And yes, we

543
00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:57.199
started in a revolution and we we started to to

544
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:01.280
what I mean at the at you know, the goal

545
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:04.079
of the revolution is for us to be free. And

546
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:07.280
anything that is done or said does it add or

547
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:10.239
take away from those freedom principles. And I don't care

548
00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:13.079
if you're a Republican or a Democrat. In fact, I

549
00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:15.280
really don't care much for the party system. I agree

550
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:18.519
with our first president of the United States, George Washington,

551
00:37:18.679 --> 00:37:21.559
who said that parties are going to be a problem.

552
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:22.159
And they have been.

553
00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:27.320
They have served to disunify, not unify the United States

554
00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:30.320
of America. And here we are today, and we're probably

555
00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:32.760
I don't know, every time it gets so bad, it's

556
00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:35.320
always the worst it's ever been, right, So I want

557
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:38.800
to kind of fall into that trap. But regardless, we've

558
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:40.480
got a lot of trouble here in River City.

559
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:44.039
Yeah, we do. So let's put aside the one set

560
00:37:44.039 --> 00:37:48.320
of statistics where we might disagree in that having looked

561
00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:51.639
carefully at it. Particular how that here too the report

562
00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:55.719
of the Criminology Criminal Justice Lawn Society, which did the

563
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:58.920
study through twenty twenty, and Cato did a study from

564
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:03.599
twenty twenty to today, and Kato's a libertarian organization. Again,

565
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:06.840
I'm fairly well convinced that doesn't make me right, but

566
00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:10.840
fairly well convinced it over that thirty year period talking

567
00:38:11.119 --> 00:38:14.440
just about targeted assassinations, that there were more from the

568
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:17.239
right than the left. But whether I'm right or whether

569
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:20.920
I'm wrong, it is crystal clear to me that in

570
00:38:20.960 --> 00:38:25.960
the total volume of violence, the left is far and

571
00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:30.239
away the leader, because the left see political activities they

572
00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:33.880
don't like and they react with violence. They react with looting,

573
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:38.679
an arson and physical altercations, something the right doesn't do

574
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:44.000
except to a limited degree when counter demonstrators show up

575
00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:48.199
at large demonstrations called by the left. So they're not

576
00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:53.159
totally uninvolved, but they're much less involved, and seldom do

577
00:38:53.239 --> 00:38:55.480
they start it. So you have to look at what

578
00:38:55.639 --> 00:38:58.920
is violence. Those studies the one I just held up

579
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:03.960
the Cato study, there very limited to fatalities caused by

580
00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:09.159
targeted ideological violence. And where they may be wrong is

581
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:12.079
in trying to determine what was the cause of the violence.

582
00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:15.400
I do think that's too narrow a way to look

583
00:39:15.400 --> 00:39:18.280
at violence. I think we have to look at all

584
00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:21.599
forms of violence. And when we look at all forms

585
00:39:21.599 --> 00:39:25.519
of violence, there's just really no doubt that the left,

586
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:29.119
particularly in the last five years, and maybe doesn't much

587
00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:33.079
matter what happened twenty five or thirty years ago except

588
00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:37.639
to historians, But as we try to remedy what's happening today,

589
00:39:38.159 --> 00:39:40.960
there's no doubt of two things in my mind, or

590
00:39:41.000 --> 00:39:45.360
three things. One that violence wrint large. So again I'm

591
00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:49.119
not limiting it to just Charlie Kirk type assassination. That

592
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:54.559
violence writ large is overwhelmingly a problem from the left. Second,

593
00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:59.679
the poles are unambiguous. People on the left support the

594
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:04.360
u of violence at a level far ahead of people

595
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.000
on the right. Now, it's bad when it's supported by

596
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:10.320
people on the right or left, but the problem is

597
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:13.360
much larger today on the left. Again, I don't care

598
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:17.719
about twenty five years ago except for historians. Third, there's

599
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:24.760
little doubt that mainstream democrats and mainstream progressives either encourage

600
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:29.079
or at least excuse violence when they see it, citing

601
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:32.000
the same reason people do in polls. And here's the

602
00:40:32.119 --> 00:40:35.039
last point that's very clear. In the last couple of years,

603
00:40:35.320 --> 00:40:38.599
maybe not much longer than that, people on the left

604
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:42.880
mask violence when it's caused by people on the left.

605
00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:47.199
And that's not just ideological violence. When a murderer not

606
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:51.639
an ideological murder, just a murderer is a Christian white male,

607
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:55.199
normally the story will point out that the murderer was

608
00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:58.719
at least a white male and perhaps a Christian white male.

609
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:04.159
When the murderer is trans or the murderer is a

610
00:41:04.280 --> 00:41:08.760
racial minority, the mainstream media will generally just say there

611
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:12.880
was a murder. They won't make a point of the murderer. Now,

612
00:41:13.239 --> 00:41:17.280
those murders are not ideological, and the murderer almost certainly

613
00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:20.159
didn't do the murder because they were black or white.

614
00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:27.280
But part of obscuring what's happening is obscuring the details

615
00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:30.559
of the murderer when they're in one group, and trumpeting

616
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:33.840
the details of the murder when there are another. Exactly

617
00:41:34.039 --> 00:41:41.119
or very recently poor ideological murders, lying Jimmy Kimmel, who

618
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:43.400
from my first Amendment point of view, had to write

619
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:48.079
to lie, but lied and said that Charlie Kirk's assassin

620
00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:51.199
was a maga Republican. He wasn't. He came from a

621
00:41:51.239 --> 00:41:53.840
Republican family, and he in the last few years had

622
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:59.400
become a radical leftist, particularly on trans issues. We saw

623
00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:05.480
that with other recent ideological attacks. There have been stories

624
00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:10.480
that the man just convicted of attempting to assassinate Donald

625
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:14.719
Trump was from the right. There were stories that the

626
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:20.599
assassin attempted assassin of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania was from

627
00:42:20.599 --> 00:42:24.280
the right, again because his family was conservative. You know what,

628
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:27.880
We're not our parents, we're not our grandparents. And when

629
00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:33.079
the assassin evolves or changes or mutates into a leftist,

630
00:42:33.559 --> 00:42:35.440
he or she is a leftist and it really doesn't

631
00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:38.840
matter what his parents are or were, And yet at

632
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:41.400
the left they lie about it. So why am I

633
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:44.320
going on about this? I'm going on about this because

634
00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:49.000
I think narrow statistics about fatalities over a thirty year

635
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:54.199
period might show one thing. Broader statistics and broader analysis

636
00:42:54.440 --> 00:42:59.400
and a more contemporary analysis clearly shows momentum is from

637
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:03.360
the left. We've got to do something about that. The

638
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:09.239
left has got to do something about healing itself, recognizing

639
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:14.400
its problems. If it doesn't recognize this problem, if it

640
00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:19.320
doesn't recognize its role in this problem, we're not going

641
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:20.199
to get any better.

642
00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:23.199
And I think part of the argument you present here,

643
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:25.000
I mean I was talking with doctor John Lott from

644
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:29.280
the Crime Prevention Research Center, and I've been rather frustrated

645
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.559
with some of the data that's been coming out, and

646
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:34.880
i'd say in the last decade at least from the

647
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:37.519
government that kind of cooks the books.

648
00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:38.880
It's almost to the point.

649
00:43:38.599 --> 00:43:42.639
That our government, whenever their hands touch any kind of numbers,

650
00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:44.639
it has to fit a narrative. I don't care if

651
00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:48.000
it's right or left. I want the facts, the whole facts.

652
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:51.000
I want the truth. And when you start cooking the

653
00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:54.480
books and messing around with these numbers and everything else,

654
00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:56.719
I mean, what are we handing off to the next generation.

655
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:59.480
When the next generation looks back during this period of

656
00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:02.000
time and they're what they're going to do, somebody's probably

657
00:44:02.039 --> 00:44:03.599
going to be smart enough to say any of those

658
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:05.559
numbers that came I don't care if you're talking about,

659
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:10.079
you know, a pandemic or you know whatever employment numbers.

660
00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:12.320
We're just going to put some big asterisks on it

661
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:16.199
so that we know that we're forewarned that this came

662
00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:18.920
from a you know, a corrupt database.

663
00:44:19.360 --> 00:44:21.320
Yeah. I think what you may be in part referring

664
00:44:21.320 --> 00:44:25.440
to is that the FBI's data that's partner where armed

665
00:44:25.480 --> 00:44:31.159
civilians were involved in stopping crime included just a fraction,

666
00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:33.639
a small fraction of the total incidents. And there are

667
00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:37.599
a number of different databases that include those numbers. The

668
00:44:37.719 --> 00:44:43.079
FBI database suffers from a weakness that some large cities

669
00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:47.559
don't contribute numbers to the FBI database. For example, Chicago

670
00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:52.400
does not. Some of the other databases, which are generated

671
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:57.360
using different methodology, actually have more complete numbers. And one

672
00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:02.639
of the categories of numbers were the FBI database, Assuming

673
00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:05.159
for a moment that they're being honest, but where the

674
00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:08.719
FBI database is just wolfully inadequate is in the number

675
00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:14.159
of incidents where lawfully armed civilians were instrumental in stopping

676
00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:15.239
the commission of a crime.

677
00:45:16.360 --> 00:45:18.960
You see, but all these numbers, I mean, okay, so

678
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:21.639
you can come up with rationale as to why it's not,

679
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:24.280
but these are government figures. I mean, if you're going

680
00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:26.760
to quote them, you better make sure that you can

681
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:29.519
fall on your sword for them and say, okay, these

682
00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:32.119
are the right numbers. But there's so many numbers that come,

683
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:36.559
whether it's crime, whether it's jobs that have been created.

684
00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:39.760
I mean, come on, at the end of the Biden administration,

685
00:45:40.360 --> 00:45:46.199
we get a number that they over they overestimated employment.

686
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:47.079
By a million jobs.

687
00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:50.559
All of a sudden, a million jobs vapor that to me, ken,

688
00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:54.320
I mean, I came out of the business world that said,

689
00:45:54.599 --> 00:45:57.639
the number that you project better be pretty darn close,

690
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:00.519
if not right on. You can always always do better,

691
00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:04.920
but you can't do worse. And here, you know, it's

692
00:46:04.960 --> 00:46:07.199
like when I was growing up, my dad worked in

693
00:46:07.239 --> 00:46:11.400
civil service after his service in World War Two, and

694
00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:15.360
the general mantra was, well, that's close enough for government.

695
00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:18.400
I remember that saying, you know the BLS numbers, the

696
00:46:18.519 --> 00:46:23.079
harm done was twofold one. Well, the attempt at harm

697
00:46:23.800 --> 00:46:27.599
was in impacting the election so that Biden could argue

698
00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:31.199
that they'd done a great job on employment. Unfortunately, Biden

699
00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:35.639
or Mela Harris lost, but the margin of Republicans in

700
00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:39.119
Congress might be larger, but for those BLS numbers even

701
00:46:39.199 --> 00:46:41.239
just a few more seats would make a difference.

702
00:46:41.519 --> 00:46:44.679
Ken, We're running out of time, so I'm going to

703
00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:49.280
have you summarize this real quick and then summarize our

704
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:51.400
core American value free speech.

705
00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:53.679
And put a wrap on it here. Okay, I'll give

706
00:46:53.679 --> 00:46:54.719
you about sixty seconds.

707
00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:58.000
Go ahead to quickly finish my point on the BLS.

708
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:01.559
The numbers showing much high employment were one of the

709
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:03.760
reasons why interest rates were and cut, and that was

710
00:47:03.800 --> 00:47:05.920
bad for the economy and bad for people. So it

711
00:47:05.960 --> 00:47:09.199
was just bad overall. Turning to the bigger issue, I

712
00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:14.480
believe that America was founded on a premise of the

713
00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:18.800
First Amendment. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly,

714
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:22.559
freedom to petition the government. None of that works without

715
00:47:22.599 --> 00:47:26.679
free speech. None of that works without recognizing that free

716
00:47:26.679 --> 00:47:30.639
speech means and only means something. If I defend your

717
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:34.400
right to say things with which I strongly disagree, you

718
00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:36.760
don't need any rights if I agree with what you say.

719
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:39.840
You need rights when I disagree with what you say exactly.

720
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:44.079
And the country is moving in a wrong direction, particularly

721
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:47.320
from the left, but even from the right. When we

722
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:51.719
turn to gen Z, we as Americans have to turn

723
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:54.400
this ship around before it's too late.

724
00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:57.800
We're all in this boat together. You're exactly right. This

725
00:47:57.880 --> 00:48:00.679
is an US thing. It's not a republic thing. It's

726
00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:04.119
not a democratic thing. It's a we the people thing, right.

727
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:08.960
Absolutely, and we the people need the right to speak

728
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:09.639
our minds.

729
00:48:09.760 --> 00:48:11.679
Well, Kennon, speedback. I cannot thank you enough.

730
00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:15.199
I appreciate the insight as always, and you and I

731
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.159
need to have maybe an off campus conversation about COVID.

732
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:23.000
I'm not sure where we disagree, but we can talk

733
00:48:23.039 --> 00:48:26.480
about that later. Kennan is the founder and chairman of

734
00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:29.400
the SMI Group, an international consulting firm and a contributor

735
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:33.639
to Real Politics and the Claremont Institutes the American Mind. Kennon,

736
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:35.719
thank you for being with us. Appreciate the time, Take care,

737
00:48:35.840 --> 00:48:38.639
be well. My friends will well. Our thanks to Kennon,

738
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:40.800
and thank you for sharing a part of your day

739
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.280
with us as we had this conversation about free speech.

740
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:46.039
And the bottom line is, if it's going to get fixed,

741
00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:47.639
it's going to be up to me and you. Let's

742
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:50.320
look in the mirror. We the people must activate ourselves.

743
00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:52.840
Well that's a wrap for us. Thank you for being

744
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:54.000
with us. May God bless you.

745
00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:54.840
And keep you.

746
00:48:54.840 --> 00:48:57.079
May make his face shine upon you, May be gracious

747
00:48:57.159 --> 00:49:08.800
unto you and give you peace. God bless, would put bout,

748
00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:10.559
everything would product