Too Big- How To Tell and How To Get More Accountability

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.399
The topics and opinions expressed in the
following show are solely those of the hosts

2
00:00:03.399 --> 00:00:06.679
and their guests and not those of
W FORCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates.

3
00:00:06.879 --> 00:00:10.119
We make no recommendations or endorsements for
radio show, program, services,

4
00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:13.640
or products mentioned on air or on
our web. No liability, explicit or

5
00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:17.480
implied shall be extended to W FORCY
Radio. It's employees are affiliates. Any

6
00:00:17.559 --> 00:00:20.960
questions or comments should be directed to
those show hosts. Thank you for choosing

7
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:40.799
W FORCY Radio. Well, good
afternoon. Great to have you with us.

8
00:00:40.920 --> 00:00:44.320
I'm Bill Martinez. Welcome to the
show. We're going to have Bruce

9
00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:48.240
Thatcher joining us in just a moment. He is the founder of History Speaks

10
00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:52.240
Today, and we're talking about his
latest book, Too Big. Leaders of

11
00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:59.039
big organizations are generally shielded from effective
accountability for their actions and for the actions

12
00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:02.880
of employees an agents. In his
new book, Too Big, the thirty

13
00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:10.920
year veteran and marketing and management examines
five high profile, historical and current examples

14
00:01:11.040 --> 00:01:15.879
of where accountability was and is flawed
or missing. It shows how such people

15
00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:22.480
are often up subject to effective accountability
by the organizations they lead. It also

16
00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:26.959
shows many of the ploys that were
and are used to evade accountability. Bruce

17
00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:30.840
Stature joins us, Now, hey, Bruce, how are you, buddy?

18
00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:34.359
I'm fine. It good to be
with the Bill Well, always good.

19
00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:38.840
I always enjoy our time together.
It's so thought provoking, and especially

20
00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:44.680
this new book, Too Big.
Tell us what prompted this this book?

21
00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:49.359
Well, you know, I need
to give a little background first that will

22
00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:53.000
maybe put it in perspective. Okay, when I first started, before I

23
00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.400
first started writing, and I was
in the Kansas City area, I often

24
00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:02.760
got concerned about why don't we learn
from history's lessons? Because we never seemed

25
00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:06.480
to do that exactly. And I
thought about that a bit. I kept

26
00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:09.840
thinking about it after I moved down
here to Texas to retire, and I

27
00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:17.680
came to the conclusion that the reason
we don't learn history's lessons is because generally

28
00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:23.280
we're not taught history's lessons. We're
taught to who, when, where?

29
00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:29.159
Why? Of history? We marched
through time sequences and people and places,

30
00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:36.280
But nowhere in my experience in history, with one exception, was the question

31
00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:39.360
of so what ever addressed exactly?
So what does it mean for us today?

32
00:02:40.599 --> 00:02:44.800
So I decided to deal with the
deal with the so what, and

33
00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:50.919
I established history speaks today, and
the whole intention of all the books is

34
00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:55.439
the so what on some particular lesson
of history. This is a fifth book,

35
00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:01.639
and it like all the others,
the lesson is in the subtitle it's

36
00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:07.759
too big as a title on the
subtitle is how to tell and how we

37
00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:10.360
can get build more accountability. And
that tells you what the lesson is and

38
00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:14.599
what the book's all about. You
know, Bruce, you're so spot on.

39
00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:16.639
I've never heard anybody put it in
those terms, in terms of,

40
00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:20.280
you know, we go, we
take a class, we get a task,

41
00:03:20.360 --> 00:03:23.479
we get a grade, and we
move on to the next uh,

42
00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:29.639
you know, the next objective of
what the classroom syllabus says that we should

43
00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:34.199
do. And that's unfortunate. And
I think that's a perfect reason why we

44
00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:38.520
don't learn, because we really don't. We really don't study. We we

45
00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:44.960
just we just do it just to
get a grade and and and cover a

46
00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:49.759
class objective, as opposed to really
drilling down and coming away with some sort

47
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:53.159
of knowledge. It's almost like,
uh, you know, in a general

48
00:03:53.280 --> 00:03:55.400
education class, that's what it is. It just covers it and gives you

49
00:03:55.400 --> 00:04:00.400
a broad brush approach. Unless you
you happen to decide to you're going to

50
00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:03.319
major in history, then maybe you
might have a little bit more opportunity to

51
00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:08.960
do a deeper dive. Right,
Yeah, And what I learned, I

52
00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:13.960
think what I practice practically all the
way through school was what are the techniques

53
00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:17.279
to pass the tests and get a
good grade? Exactly? And I suspect

54
00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:28.800
that that's what most people experiences in
approaching school. We talk about education in

55
00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:34.319
terms of teaching students how to think
critically, right, and that happens sometimes,

56
00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:39.959
but I think too far too infrequently. Well, and the unfortunate thing,

57
00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:42.120
Bruce, is there you are.
You're in a classroom, I mean

58
00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:45.160
depending, I mean it could be
twenty, it could be fifty or so

59
00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:49.480
people there. And can you imagine
if you exercise the cumulative brain trust of

60
00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:55.279
everybody in that classroom, including the
professor, to address these issues? Boy

61
00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:58.079
man, I'll tell you, people
would get more out of history than they've

62
00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:06.759
ever realized before. Unquestionably but unfortunately, at least in my experience and teaching

63
00:05:06.759 --> 00:05:12.959
of history, history was you learn
these facts and you spin them back,

64
00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:17.360
right. I don't remember only one
exception I mentioned earlier, I don't remember

65
00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:21.199
ever having a discussion about, well, what does it mean for us?

66
00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:27.519
What is it all about? That
exception was a class in naval science.

67
00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:32.240
Thet the history of the United States
and World Sea power was it was the

68
00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:36.360
subject that we studied battles, and
we studied the details, and there was

69
00:05:36.399 --> 00:05:43.040
always as so what, because it
was leading to presumably a life potential,

70
00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:46.639
life situations, and saying, if
you're in these situations, do this,

71
00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:54.560
don't do this? Exactly? Well, in your in your book Too Big,

72
00:05:55.759 --> 00:06:01.519
you address some key individuals and you
you take them by case case one,

73
00:06:02.120 --> 00:06:06.959
we break down speaking of so what
Robert Clive and the East India Company

74
00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:12.519
break that down for us. The
East India Company, I think it still

75
00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:17.160
exists in some minuscule way to day, But in the sixteen, seventeen and

76
00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:24.199
eighteen hundreds it was the literally the
biggest company on earth. It was huge.

77
00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:29.399
The only thing I remember studying in
history about the East India Company was

78
00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:33.920
the Boston Tea Party, and they
threw tea overboard from their ships. But

79
00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:39.279
the East India Company literally had its
own army. It was authorized to have

80
00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:45.120
its own army. It was authorized
to conquer lands and do whatever wanted to

81
00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:51.680
and the subject of Robert Clive joined
the East India Company as a very young

82
00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:59.160
man, not particularly notable in any
particular area, but he went to joined

83
00:06:59.160 --> 00:07:04.360
the Eastern India Company and he went
to India. India had just East India

84
00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:10.199
Company had a trading relationship with some
of the some of the princes of India,

85
00:07:10.279 --> 00:07:14.839
and he went to India as East
India Companies first as just just an

86
00:07:14.879 --> 00:07:19.040
employee, and he quickly worked up
to a position of some responsibility where he

87
00:07:19.079 --> 00:07:25.839
was commanding armies, fighting battles against
the French and the competitors, but also

88
00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:31.680
against some of the Indian representatives.
And he made a lot of money.

89
00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:35.399
He made a lot of money,
and he went back, he sort of

90
00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:40.040
retired, He got married, he
went back and he went to back to

91
00:07:40.279 --> 00:07:44.519
back to London, and he blew
all the money in various fashions. And

92
00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:46.879
then the East India Company said,
come back to us, and they sent

93
00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:54.040
him back to to to India again, and he literally went through the process

94
00:07:54.800 --> 00:08:01.399
without going in the details. The
East India Company in India under his leadership,

95
00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:09.120
literally conquered the company country. Wow, their army was bigger than the

96
00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:15.759
Army of Great Britain. Well,
what happened was, of course he got

97
00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:20.160
very corrupted. He some of the
relationships are very corrupted. He went back

98
00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.480
to London, he was criticized,
He tried to get in Parliament, he

99
00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:31.959
didn't make it, and ultimately he
literally probably committed suicide. He died at

100
00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:39.799
a young age. But what it
illustrated was one of the principles of accountability

101
00:08:39.480 --> 00:08:48.440
is time dynamics. Accountability relates to
timely communications. In those days, communications

102
00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:56.159
was a one year cycle from London
to India and back and allowed him to

103
00:08:56.519 --> 00:09:01.559
just do whatever he wanted to exactly. Yeah, it's amazing. Uh you

104
00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:07.200
know when you when you consider that
dynamic and how it played in, uh

105
00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:11.120
played into the role. So here
here he is Robert Clive, very successful,

106
00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:16.600
pretty much bankrupts himself, goes back
to East India company, reinvents himself

107
00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:22.759
and reinvents himself with even much more
power, right, much more power,

108
00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:28.720
and and he is he if you
bought a point at any one person,

109
00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:35.639
he's probably the person that made India
a colony of the United Kingdom. The

110
00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:43.759
United Kingdom, Great Britain got ultimately
after his death some years Great Britain took

111
00:09:43.879 --> 00:09:50.879
over the UK, took away from
East India, Company took possession of India,

112
00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:58.200
and and of course the history of
India we know. Well, maybe

113
00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:03.279
if Clive hadn't been so arrogant and
leveraged his control of India and turned it

114
00:10:03.360 --> 00:10:07.080
over to the crown sooner he may
have entered into Parliament. Might add a

115
00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:13.240
different story, just you. Probably
might. He might have kept his millions,

116
00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:16.799
yea, and might have lived longer, long enough to enjoy it.

117
00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:20.559
Well, Bruce Thatcher is our guest. He's the founder of History Speaks today,

118
00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:26.960
and we're taking a look at his
brand new book Too Big Leaders of

119
00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:33.080
big organizations that are generally shielded from
effective accountability. The subtitle of the book

120
00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:39.039
how to tell and how to get
more accountability. The next story that you

121
00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:43.919
break down in case two has always
been one that I've been very fascinated with,

122
00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:48.600
Bruce, and that's John D.
Rockefeller with a standard oil company.

123
00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:54.840
John D. Rockefeller was a self
made man. I mean, he came

124
00:10:54.960 --> 00:11:01.559
from small beginnings and he went ultimately
he went to the to the oil patch,

125
00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:09.000
which in those days was in northwest
Pennsylvania, and he worked there just

126
00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:11.679
a little bit, not He never
owned a oil well, never owned an

127
00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:16.600
oil well or an oil well least. But what he did in those days

128
00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:24.639
is that there were a lot of
little companies that were refining oil. The

129
00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:31.399
value of petroleum oil was as a
competitor to whale oil for lighting. There

130
00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:35.440
was no other envisioned use for it
at the time, but that was a

131
00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:43.159
huge, huge market. So John
D. Rockefeller decided that the way to

132
00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.200
keep them, and there were all
kinds of price pressures, the way to

133
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:52.840
keep the prices up was to control
the refining of oil. So he opened

134
00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:58.840
his refinery in Cleveland, and he
and he bought other refiners, and he

135
00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:03.720
coerced, and that was his pattern
all the way through his career, was

136
00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:09.559
to pressure and coerce competitors to join
him if they didn't. If they did

137
00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:13.639
join him, they became very,
very wealthy people. If they didn't join

138
00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:18.639
him, they typically were ruined.
Because he controlled the railroads in so far

139
00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:24.360
as their relationships were with the oil
business. When pipelines came along, he

140
00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.759
quickly controlled the pipelines. He had
tankers, the worldwide fleets of ships,

141
00:12:30.519 --> 00:12:35.879
and and he was very little some
but very little of what he did was

142
00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:41.320
actually against the law and under the
laws at the time. And he was

143
00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:45.639
a brilliant man, did a lot
of How was he able to get away

144
00:12:45.639 --> 00:12:50.519
with that bruce? Well, because
he got away with it, because he

145
00:12:50.559 --> 00:13:01.399
managed to have more probably i'd say
more audacity than anything else. He ultimately

146
00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:09.639
bribed congressman. For a long time, he held off the anti trust legions

147
00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:13.639
in both in the states and of
Pennsylvania and in the and in the Congress.

148
00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:24.720
And when it got to getting people
out of out of his way,

149
00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:28.080
he did or his agents did,
is the more accurate thing. He did

150
00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:35.919
hire people, i mean thugs to
to work violence some people who were competing

151
00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:41.399
with him. Wow, he has
his ways, huh, he had his

152
00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:46.759
ways. And and and after the
Sermon Trust Act was finally enacted and they

153
00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:52.080
brought the case against the Standard Oil
Trust, it wasn't the Standard Oil Company

154
00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:56.440
at the time. It was a
very interesting thing that he did and it

155
00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:03.799
was copied later in one of the
other cases. He set up an organization

156
00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:11.240
to defeat the anti trust laws and
business laws of the various states they operated

157
00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:15.000
in, and it was called a
trust. It was the first time that

158
00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:20.480
had been done. And he owned
shares of the trust and he was he

159
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.639
was just had an equal share with
everybody else, but some people were more

160
00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:31.840
equal than others of the case,
and he absolutely nothing happened in the Standard

161
00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.960
Oil Trust that he didn't approve on. He knew, well, I argue,

162
00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:43.240
he knew everything that went on.
He was he destroyed paper trails,

163
00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:46.279
if you will, and had some
deniability because you know, I just own

164
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:52.519
a few shares of the trust.
That's right after after the Justice Department broke

165
00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:56.720
up the Standard Oil Company into a
whole bunch of other companies, he ended

166
00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:01.039
up being them for a while,
majority owner of every single one of those

167
00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:07.679
companies, and he became the richest
man in the world after Standard All Company

168
00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:13.440
was broken up. Well, that's
that's amazing. Maybe he was the one

169
00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.399
that originated the idea of plausible deniability, Bruce, what do you think?

170
00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.840
Well, I don't know if he
originated it, but he sure did it.

171
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:28.639
He had a I mean, he
went absolutely out of his way to

172
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:33.799
not be have a paper trail and
not be associated with some of the decisions

173
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:43.840
that the trust entered into, and
plausible deniability was a big part of his

174
00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:46.720
way to avoid accountability. What can
I do, I'm just one, you

175
00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:50.320
know, I'm just one voice and
all this thing. I didn't know that

176
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:58.759
these people were beating up the guys
trying to build a competitive pipeline. He

177
00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:04.200
it's it's it's a part of Rockefeller
that doesn't show up in the usual history

178
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:11.960
books. Ida Tarboo in her book
Muckraking book really went into that sort of

179
00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:18.200
thing. But it's a I think
it's a good case of the plausibility right,

180
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:26.200
of the plausible deniability approach to avoiding
accountability. Well, he had to

181
00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:30.000
be a smart guy, Bruce,
I mean, because he was like a

182
00:16:30.120 --> 00:16:33.679
step or two ahead of the government. Uh, you know, the government's

183
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.919
still you know, trying to get
his legs underneath itself. Uh you know,

184
00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:44.360
we're in this industrial revolution. It's
happening at mock five speeds, and

185
00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:48.840
Rockefeller is ahead of it and probably
realizing that he had a certain amount of

186
00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:55.960
time that he could get away with
it until until he couldn't get away with

187
00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.240
it anymore. I think there's a
little question that cocker Feller was a brilliant

188
00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:06.680
man, a genius. He recognized, he recognized where the opportunities were,

189
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:12.359
and he had absolutely no compunction about
doing whatever it was necessary to get them.

190
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:22.640
But I think that actually that's a
a description of almost anybody who enters

191
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:29.519
into it, goes into an enterprise
and develops it, either from sprats or

192
00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:33.200
going into it, works their way
to the top. They all tend to

193
00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:37.480
be very very smart people. They're
not They're not idiots at all, exactly.

194
00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:41.519
Well, Bridge, don't you think
a little bit that they maybe understand

195
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:45.720
that there's a beginning and end with
all this stuff, that it will just

196
00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:51.000
never, you know, keep on
going. Is that you just make you

197
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:56.039
know, make hay while the sun
shines, and knowing that their competition could

198
00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:00.039
be outside circumstances. I mean,
you know, I guess in studying some

199
00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:07.240
of these geniuses and uh, you
know, emperors of industry so to speak,

200
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:11.640
is that you know very few of
them really. I mean, no,

201
00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.559
no question. They were audacious,
and they were arrogant, and there

202
00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:19.000
is hubrists and all that that went
in it. But I think there was

203
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:23.599
also an element of reality that drove
them as well. I don't know,

204
00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:29.960
maybe I'm i'm i'm I'm seeing too
much, but I just think that maybe

205
00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:36.799
these guys are just so much smarter
than we realize. I think that again,

206
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:42.640
there surely are exceptions but I think
that it is characteristic of all the

207
00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:48.240
people who rise to the top that
they have a wide vision, a wide

208
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.599
range of vision. They know what's
going on. Usually they know what they

209
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:56.400
want to do and where they're going
to go, and usually they want to

210
00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:03.880
absolutely maintain control of all the circumstances
that they can. Question. The question

211
00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.359
that comes that, surely the many
of them come up against, is how

212
00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:12.559
far do I go in order to
get done what I want to get want

213
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:17.440
to get done? Exact. Rockefeller
had the advantage that there were very few

214
00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:22.839
laws against any of the things he
wanted to do until late in the late

215
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:29.839
in the game, as it were, exactly, And that's not the case

216
00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:34.039
with some of the people who come
later on exactly. But he knew then

217
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:40.519
as we do now, is that
it doesn't hurt to know which politicians to

218
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:47.640
Greece, right, oh yeah,
oh yeah. Rockefeller. Rockefeller always had

219
00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:51.640
we'd call it today, We would
say, well, he had these these

220
00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:56.319
senators in his pocket or whatever.
He always in the Pennsylvania legislature and then

221
00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:03.200
in the in the US Congress.
He always has had people who are what

222
00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.000
we would say, is I said, in our pocket, in his pocket,

223
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:11.319
right, you know Brissett, it
almost is a little bit frustrating because

224
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:15.480
you think, uh, okay,
if you work hard and you demonstrate merit,

225
00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:19.640
that you can be successful. But
in order to play at the levels

226
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:26.480
that Rockefeller and these other leaders do, you got to understand the totality of

227
00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:32.119
the game that you're entering into is
that it is. It can be dirty,

228
00:20:32.200 --> 00:20:37.759
can it. You have to understand
the game. And it's even we

229
00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.680
like to compare things to sports,
and we say, well, it's a

230
00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:49.759
game. It's more life encompassing than
just a game. You have to put

231
00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:56.039
your you have to commit yourself to
the whole thing. You have to commit

232
00:20:56.319 --> 00:20:59.480
when in starting a business and working
a business. I have some experience of

233
00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:06.160
that. You do surely you have
to commit yourself to twelve hours a day

234
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:08.759
and more than that seven to six, seven days a week exactly be willing

235
00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:12.599
to do everything. And they were, they would do it, they would

236
00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:17.480
they would get it done. And
I think that that was a characteristic of

237
00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:22.000
almost anybody who works to the top. And we always we keep talking about

238
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.640
and most of my examples are corporations, but it applies to government and non

239
00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:32.559
government entities just as well as it
does corporations exactly. Well, you know

240
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:40.480
these, as you say, these
these industry titans, they understood the power

241
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:45.519
of government and by getting close to
it. So in some ways the traditions

242
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:51.599
of previous empires continue. And that
is that, you know, if you

243
00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:55.319
couldn't be king, at least get
as close to the king as possible in

244
00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:00.039
order to garner favor and advantage.
Right, absolutely, league, I have

245
00:22:02.119 --> 00:22:06.720
I moving along just a little bit. I One of the interesting cases I

246
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:10.839
liked best was the one on General
Electric and Ralph Cordner. Yes, okay,

247
00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:14.759
I was working for General Electric during
those years, oh did okay?

248
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.960
Uh? And it was a It
was fascinating for me to do the research

249
00:22:18.039 --> 00:22:22.480
on it because while I knew the
price fixing trials were going on, it

250
00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:26.000
was sort of vaguely. I didn't
work in those particular departments. It was

251
00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:32.920
incredible for me to think back about
how absolutely unaware I was. I mean

252
00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:36.680
I was, I was a big
I didn't you know this. These things

253
00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:41.240
didn't mean anything to me at the
time I was there. I did refer

254
00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:45.759
to and one of Ralph Cordner was
I think it was an expert at creating

255
00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:53.279
plausible deniability. He created or reinvented
and and strengthened policy called twenty point five

256
00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:02.240
that says it is it is against
the General Electric policy to engage in any

257
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:07.039
collusion or price fixing with competitors.
Further than that, I, as a

258
00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:12.680
very young damp behind the years my
college person, I was called into a

259
00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:19.079
meeting in a country club the Chicago
area and all of our employee not all

260
00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:22.880
of our employees, but all of
our marketing employees were there and we had

261
00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:26.480
a presentation of the Sherman Anna Trust
Actor Clayton Act, a couple more,

262
00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:33.160
and then a presentation from the company
that says, here is our policy twenty

263
00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:38.000
point five, and now you sign
it. And I had signed all of

264
00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:41.680
a sudden signed it, and then
it was mailed into New York, and

265
00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:45.519
you know, I was, okay, we'll do that into New York and

266
00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:48.759
into the file and forget all about
it. But Ralph Corner didn't forget all

267
00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:55.920
about it, because that was a
huge defense at his trial and the trial

268
00:23:55.920 --> 00:24:00.839
of the General Electric people, was
that I couldn't know. I had no

269
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:06.400
reason to suppose that anybody would do
these things because we have a policy against

270
00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:10.400
it. Yeah, here it is, it's documented and like they say in

271
00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:12.680
a court of law, there's nothing
like a document to defend your case.

272
00:24:12.759 --> 00:24:18.200
Right, that's right, that's right. And so that was that was an

273
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:25.400
interesting personal experience on him. One
of the cases, of course is j

274
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:32.039
Edgar Hoover. That's not a corporation, right, And and j Edgar Hoover,

275
00:24:32.200 --> 00:24:36.079
I think never had his eye on
an endgame. J Edgar Hoover was

276
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:41.279
never going to leave his job.
He was a king. This was his

277
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:45.400
creation, the FBI, and he
was on top of it. And everybody

278
00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:49.519
better understand it, because he was
absolutely never going to leave. Yes,

279
00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:56.160
yeah, exactly and uh. And
he had quite the you know, quite

280
00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:02.359
the information that he had on everybody, whether there were an enemy or not.

281
00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:07.319
Right. He started collecting personal information, using agents to do this,

282
00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:15.799
and making files on anybody he thought
might ever be of any use to him

283
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:21.680
or any influence on him. And
he started this fairly early in his career.

284
00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:25.079
And he just kept doing it,
kept doing it, kept doing it.

285
00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:30.680
And after a while there was the
you know, the well Jediker Hoover's

286
00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:34.640
files, you really had him,
he didn't really have him. He would

287
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:42.079
and he would use the information ruthlessly
to get what he wanted, and presidents

288
00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:51.079
were not willing to cross him nobody
because it was he probably had incriminating information

289
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:55.319
on everybody who could affect him.
And there's some cases instances in the book

290
00:25:55.319 --> 00:26:03.000
where he used that information to absolutely
score senators who were opposing his budgets or

291
00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:06.880
anything like that, right exactly.
Well, you know the thing is,

292
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:11.480
let's face it, there's just something
about power and the bureaucracy and government.

293
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.200
You know, they're not a bunch
of altar boys, not a bunch of

294
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:21.640
saints, right. I mean,
there's certain attributes about people who are in

295
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:27.039
you know, that line of business
we have. When I was in a

296
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:33.279
in a scruggel area, I got
involved in politics and one of the things

297
00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:37.880
that happened is I got elected to
the school board on very idealistic kinds of

298
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:44.079
things because some people, uh came
to me and said, you know,

299
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:45.880
here are things that going on with
schools and that's it's awful. We need

300
00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:51.119
to fix them. And this is
before all those bad books that they put

301
00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:56.279
out these days, right yeah,
oh yeah, this was a long time

302
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:59.079
ago. So I listened to all
this and I said, well, yeah,

303
00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:03.880
that sounds to be like it needs
fixing. I'll run. And there

304
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:10.119
was a campaign and I and another
guy won against two people who had been

305
00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:15.519
on the school board from the time
it was formed. And and in that

306
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:21.559
experience I learned a lot of my
politics. I learned to follow the money.

307
00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:26.400
I learned that the politics is local. The biggest interest is wherever the

308
00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:30.960
money is, and the school board, the school district budgets are the biggest

309
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:37.880
part of all local politics expenditures exactly. And what I learned, and it

310
00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:41.759
was it was told to me and
I didn't quite appreciate at the time.

311
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:48.200
It was that when people get elected
to office, they often maybe even usually

312
00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:56.119
are elected for very a realistic,
idealistic reasons. They really want to go

313
00:27:56.160 --> 00:28:00.720
and do a good job. Then
they go off to Washington and man,

314
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:04.920
that establishment sucks them in as fast
as can be. And all of their

315
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:11.400
obviously their exceptions, but all of
their ideals get rationalized the way because here's

316
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:17.640
this, here's this wonderful stuff that
they get into. Exactly. And the

317
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:21.599
same person who was telling me that
said, now you're gonna you're gonna face,

318
00:28:22.160 --> 00:28:26.119
You're gonna it's gonna happen to you
on a school board. You're gonna

319
00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:34.920
find that that the company that's paving
the parking lot at the school. They'll

320
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:40.680
do things like they'll say to you, the school board member or president.

321
00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:42.799
As I became, they'll say,
hey, you know what, we got

322
00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:48.279
this job done, and we have
this asphalt left over, and why don't

323
00:28:48.279 --> 00:28:51.519
we just you know, I know
you don't have your driveway page. Why

324
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:53.160
don't we just otherwise they're gonna throw
it away. Why don't we just come

325
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:59.440
out over there and put on your
driveway? And and you say, I

326
00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:03.920
mean the normal thing that you said, Well, that's fine. It doesn't

327
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.599
cost the school anything. They're paying
them. They're not paying any more because

328
00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:11.599
of it said okay, or the
same thing with grass seat or anything.

329
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:18.039
But then you're you're you're a bit
sucked in because the next contracts come along,

330
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:25.000
right and you remember, yeah,
and uh, it could just get

331
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:27.000
deeper and deeper and deeper. You
know, they got a hook in you.

332
00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:30.640
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't it
doesn't take much. It's also subtle.

333
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:34.640
And the thing is, like you
say, especially for these politicians that

334
00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:40.920
are elected and if they if it's
on a federal level, you know,

335
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:47.039
they go they go to the belt
Way and then their initial freshman orientation and

336
00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:52.079
they go in with all their ideology
and ideas and agenda that they want to

337
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:55.759
you know, pass, and they're
all excited about it. And then the

338
00:29:55.799 --> 00:30:02.440
first orientation meaning tells them what the
most important thing about about their being them

339
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:06.319
being members of Congress, and the
number one job is to get reelected.

340
00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:11.880
And they say, and that starts
today. So suddenly that's the most important

341
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:15.000
thing. And as you say,
it's quid pro quo, because then you

342
00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:19.359
find, you know, there's a
lot of backs to be scratched, because

343
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:25.119
you'll you'll get involved in a network
where you know, one hand is helping

344
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:29.400
another, and it's it's quite the
web, isn't it. It is?

345
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:34.720
And I'm sure I haven't been an
official capacity in Washington, but I'm sure

346
00:30:36.319 --> 00:30:44.519
that many and many have elected politicians
in Washington who fall into this trap are

347
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:47.720
able to rationalize every single one of
their decisions and say, well, this

348
00:30:47.799 --> 00:30:52.319
is really this is for the good
of fills that lie, and this isn't

349
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.960
against the law, and well,
of course I have to do these kinds

350
00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.200
of things, or I wouldn't be
able to do those kinds of things.

351
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:04.839
But as soon as I get into
that, in my opinion, they're sucked

352
00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:08.799
in without they're part of the establishment. Well, and the thing is,

353
00:31:08.839 --> 00:31:12.880
Bruce, everybody's doing it, right, I mean insider trading. You know,

354
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:18.319
you'd say, well, you know
that's it's not exactly illegal, it

355
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:23.839
you know, it's kind of great
hurt, right, Yeah, Yeah,

356
00:31:25.079 --> 00:31:32.279
there's always there's always rationalization that will
that will allow them to feel good about

357
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:37.960
what they're doing right exactly, And
that breaks down the tenants of accountability right

358
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:42.079
there, because you know, they
don't have to answer the tough questions because

359
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:45.720
they're part of the crowd, right, they're part of the and the crowd,

360
00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:52.839
they're part of the elected officials,
particularly in Washington. Is accountability depends

361
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:59.920
as kind of an hierarchical concept.
That is to say, there are people

362
00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:05.680
who rise up through the organization,
and you're always to be accountable. You

363
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:09.359
always have a boss, you always
have a supervisor, You always have somebody

364
00:32:09.400 --> 00:32:15.680
that you are accountable too. And
if it's effective accountability, that person has

365
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:22.079
the ability to effect your well being. They can decide whether you get a

366
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:27.079
raise or not. They can decide
whether you get fired or not. So

367
00:32:27.559 --> 00:32:31.519
when when there is that relationship,
you have a chance at effective accountability.

368
00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:38.839
But elected officials, it's kind of
a different sort of thing. They don't

369
00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:43.599
report to a person. We're like
to say, well, they report to

370
00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:50.119
the people, but that isn't a
person exactly, And they have to then

371
00:32:50.200 --> 00:32:54.839
they have to not justify what they're
doing, they have to persuade a majority

372
00:32:55.599 --> 00:33:01.799
to reelect them. Happens on boards
of direct too. And if you're if

373
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:08.359
you are responsible to more than one
person, then you don't have accountability.

374
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:15.880
You don't serve two masters. This
is a problem that we can't fix in

375
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:23.559
a democracy because we believe very strongly
that the people should decide who who represent

376
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:29.400
them. And and so you have
this question of what do you do about

377
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:37.440
elected leaders in terms of accountability?
What do you do about about corporate presidents

378
00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:40.559
in terms of accountability? Who will
report to a board of directors? That's

379
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:45.480
a number of people. Well,
there are some things I think you can

380
00:33:45.559 --> 00:33:51.279
do. We wait, I think
we could suggest in terms of elected officials,

381
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:53.599
but why don't we have term limits? Right? But that's not going

382
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:58.319
to happen. That's not going to
happen. We're going to have to do

383
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:06.279
our best with with our elected officials
to impose or demand an accountability and to

384
00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:07.920
do that. We're going to have
to keep their feet to the fire.

385
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:12.199
We're gonna have to ask them questions. We're gonna have to force them to

386
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:19.800
face up as much as we can
decisions they've made. Yeah, well,

387
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:23.000
Bruce, I think I think also
what we realized here recently, and that

388
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:29.440
is preserving the integrity of the vote, to make sure that every vote counts.

389
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:32.800
I mean, you talk about non
accountability, and you talk about everybody

390
00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:37.559
doing it, so it shouldn't be
a problem. And that is where there's

391
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:43.880
ballot stuffing. There's manipulation of the
ballot that's going on from state to state.

392
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:49.519
We suspect it, do we know, do we have hardcore evidence?

393
00:34:50.199 --> 00:34:53.199
We have some indications. There's lots
of smoke out there, but you know,

394
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:58.559
there's not enough interest to really look
into this. But if this is

395
00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:00.639
truly going to be a government for
by we the people, if you and

396
00:35:00.679 --> 00:35:05.639
I have discussed many times, well, then the power needs to be back

397
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:07.800
in the hands of we the people. And if the vote is the most

398
00:35:07.880 --> 00:35:13.800
important thing that we have in which
to maintain said power, then we need

399
00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:17.519
to honor that vote to make sure
that there is integrity, that there's free

400
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:23.079
and fair elections that votes aren't getting
canceled because illegal immigrants are allowed to cast

401
00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:28.239
a vote, or you know,
you've got ballot harvesters who are going into

402
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.800
nursing homes where people can you know, barely speak a sentence, and they're

403
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:36.159
you know, getting a ballot from
them, or you know, putting their

404
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:38.440
name on the ballot. And that's
not even to mention, you know,

405
00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:42.320
people who have died, like in
California. I mean, they got people

406
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:45.519
on the voting roles that have died, and it's pretty amazing in California.

407
00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:52.280
I think that I find it quite
interesting that people can die in California as

408
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:57.320
Republicans and the Democrats are able to
raise them from the dead and get them

409
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:02.440
to vote Democrat. I don't know
that California innovation. When I was living

410
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:07.840
in Chicago, you were very much
aware that the Democratic machine voted a lot

411
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:12.679
of people from from a graveyard.
Yeah, yeah, that was the same.

412
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:15.360
That was the saying. My good
friend down in South Florida, who

413
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:21.280
worked in the machinery of the Chicago
politics, he always said, when they

414
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:23.800
thought that the vote was over,
they'd say, wait, we have to

415
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:31.079
get the cemetery vote. Ye,
that's right. Election Shenneigans are not new

416
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:37.719
to our current times. You know, they went on way back in history,

417
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:39.639
well, seventeen hundred, Bruce,
I was looking back. I said,

418
00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:43.880
how long has voter fraud been going
on? And what spurred it on?

419
00:36:43.960 --> 00:36:47.280
Of course, was you know the
former Attorney General, Eric Holder,

420
00:36:47.559 --> 00:36:52.119
who swore he looked in the camera, said there's no such thing as voter

421
00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:53.960
fraud. And I and even then, I'm going, how could there be

422
00:36:54.039 --> 00:36:57.960
no such thing as voter fraud?
When people are getting arrested, they're spending

423
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:00.559
time in jail for voter fraud.
How in an attorney general makes such an

424
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:07.360
ignorant statement. I think I think
too many politicians, Well, first,

425
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:10.480
they're experts at what they do.
They're experts at what they do. And

426
00:37:10.519 --> 00:37:19.280
I think too many politicians understand very
clearly that Hitler was perfect at it.

427
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:22.440
The great lie tell it often enough
and people begin to believe it. And

428
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:28.079
the bigger the better, the bigger
the better. And a thing that I

429
00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:36.639
think is very a very strong factor
is our increasingly diminished attention span. Oh

430
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:42.800
yeah, I mean we don't a
lot of I argue, a lot of

431
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:46.599
people can't think past next week.
But we don't we don't tend to think

432
00:37:46.599 --> 00:37:52.760
about the future and what that happens. That works well for incumbent politicians because

433
00:37:52.440 --> 00:38:00.400
they can practically rely that the electorate
will not remember things they've said and things

434
00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:07.800
they've done when it comes time to
the next election. So I don't know

435
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:12.119
what to do about those things.
As I said before, how about terminal

436
00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:19.840
us. That's right exactly. We
can talk things like that, but of

437
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.639
course they're not going to happen.
They're not going to happen. Well,

438
00:38:22.760 --> 00:38:29.400
we're told in the Bible and Daniel
twelve four, And I've always appreciated this,

439
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:32.599
Bruce, because I think this is
where we are right now. It

440
00:38:32.679 --> 00:38:36.559
says that even in the time of
the end, many shall run to and

441
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:40.119
fro, and knowledge will be increased. Well, you know, here we

442
00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:45.280
are in the information age. We've
got incredible power in the palm of our

443
00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:51.000
hands and our cell phones, and
that information is there. But as you

444
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:54.920
said, I think we're so overwhelmed
by the information that we have failed to

445
00:38:54.960 --> 00:39:00.920
become discerners of the right knowledge that
are going to presume they're going to,

446
00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:07.599
you know, render the right results. Does that make sense? Every bit

447
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:14.480
of it? Absolutely? I think
that back in the days when when our

448
00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:22.320
information came to us, not quite
as fast, not quite as as on

449
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:25.639
the scene kind of thing, but
it came to us in print form usually,

450
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:30.199
and we learned to read, and
we learned to read it, and

451
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:35.440
we didn't have one hundred or a
thousand different impressions to deal with in the

452
00:39:35.480 --> 00:39:39.679
same frame sphere of time. Right. I think that we were that we

453
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:45.599
did a lot better at figuring out
what was what was actually going on.

454
00:39:46.119 --> 00:39:52.000
We didn't know as many things,
but the things we knew about we tended

455
00:39:52.039 --> 00:40:00.480
to know about in more depth.
Right. And I think that tremendous volume

456
00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:05.840
of information, the smartphone mentality and
all of this kind of thing. Oh,

457
00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:08.719
I gotta see it, I gotta
sit it is not it is not

458
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:14.239
true that you can multitask on several
things at the same time. You can

459
00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:19.199
switch back and forth. But if
but if you've got all that stuff going

460
00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:23.400
on, it's really tough. It's
really tough to get into it. Well.

461
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:27.559
And on top of that roost the
knowledge or at least the information,

462
00:40:27.639 --> 00:40:30.039
let's say, information that's being born
out there, how much of it is

463
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:35.119
the misinformation? I mean, we've
got the government claiming, you know,

464
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:42.519
other people are purveyors of misinformation when
they themselves continue to lie at every turn,

465
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:45.840
and they want to establish, you
know, a department of misinformation and

466
00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:52.639
going, I mean, you guys
are propagandists yourself, so I mean this

467
00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:57.159
whole idea, But this is why
we the people must step up. And

468
00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:00.239
you've heard me say this before.
I always urge our audience. You must

469
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:04.119
own your own knowledge. Don't just
take our word from it. You know.

470
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:07.960
Fortunately, you know we have people
were so blessed to have people with

471
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:13.440
the experience like Bruce Thatcher, historian
who brings weight to the topic. And

472
00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:15.039
it's up for you. Hopefully you're
motivated enough say, you know what,

473
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:19.800
I'm going to check this out myself
and know for myself so that when I

474
00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:23.639
address this issue, I'm not speaking
with the depth of a bumper sticker or

475
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:30.840
an eight seconds SoundBite. Right right. Look at one of the things that

476
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:40.320
reporters do. Good reporters do as
they as they look for corroborataortive information.

477
00:41:40.519 --> 00:41:46.280
They want more than just this one
statement of effect. They want other statements

478
00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:51.880
that tend to corroborate that thing,
and then they can begin to build what

479
00:41:51.920 --> 00:41:55.760
they What I was taught in journalisms, they begin to build what is a

480
00:41:55.800 --> 00:42:00.639
credible story exactly. I think that
happen as much as I'd like it to

481
00:42:00.639 --> 00:42:07.719
happen today. But we can do
that as individuals. My sister's a doctor

482
00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:10.880
and she years ago she said to
me, you're responsible for your own health,

483
00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:16.800
nobody else, and that applies to
your own well being and exidy to

484
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:23.559
your own information. You're responsible to
make sure that you're getting the whole story

485
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:29.800
as best you can. Exactly when
you concentrate and you take all of your

486
00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:34.559
news in terms of sound bites and
headlines and don't read down to the third

487
00:42:34.599 --> 00:42:39.280
paragraph and all this kind of thing, you're not living up to your responsibility,

488
00:42:39.639 --> 00:42:44.760
in my opinion, And we all
do this in some areas, but

489
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:52.760
today it just gets overwhelming. The
vent of social media has made this just

490
00:42:52.880 --> 00:43:00.400
kind of the standard way we go
about our daily lives, and social media

491
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:06.400
is social media is of course.
The fifth case in the book has to

492
00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:13.400
do with Mark Zuckerberg, and Mark
Zuckerberg again was brilliant. He's a brilliant

493
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:21.199
person, absolutely no doubt about that. He is arguably also well intentioned.

494
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:23.679
I mean, you get into now, you get into invade about things.

495
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:31.679
But he's not a bad person,
but he's like Rockefeller. He controls absolutely

496
00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:37.119
nothing happens with Facebook Meta and there
are other platforms that he does not approve

497
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:42.960
of. And you can read in
this case how various things that were happening

498
00:43:43.880 --> 00:43:50.920
caused him real anguish. But he
always responded in terms of, well,

499
00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:55.280
I will it work out for me, and we'll set up we'll set up

500
00:43:55.320 --> 00:44:01.400
an algorithm to do this or whatever
it is. And and he never he

501
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:08.480
never claimed to be associated with one
ideology or another. But things tend to

502
00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:16.199
come through, right, and it's
social media is one of the greatest blessings

503
00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:22.440
of our of our age and one
of the greatest ills of our age because

504
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:31.960
of the way we as people allow
it to take care of us. Well

505
00:44:32.039 --> 00:44:36.039
we also British. We end up
we only get about five minutes left here.

506
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:38.440
But you know, we also end
up identifying with people that we really

507
00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:45.880
don't know. It's almost like we
we imagine something about them and we're really

508
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:51.519
not dealing with reality in some of
these cases. And uh, and we

509
00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:57.320
find ourselves taking other people's words for
you a word for it, when they

510
00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:02.199
themselves haven't you know, either,
they haven't been forthright about their intention.

511
00:45:04.159 --> 00:45:07.360
I think I think Mark Zuckerberg made
it real clear in the last election what

512
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:13.320
his intention was. I think I'd
be curious to find out that if if

513
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:16.519
the winds, you know, came
from a different direction for him, that

514
00:45:16.639 --> 00:45:22.719
would serve him more directly. I'd
be curious to see if he would suddenly

515
00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:29.599
become conservative. Well, as it
gets older, maybe maybe I think that

516
00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:34.840
I think that some of the some
of the things that I think you need

517
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:42.199
to do, particularly to improve the
accountability question is is update a little bit

518
00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:45.239
of the wording in the sermon and
various other anti trust acts so that they're

519
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:52.519
brought in, remove that shielding they
have that allows them to say, well,

520
00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:54.599
we're just a media, we don't
have any control over what's there.

521
00:45:54.920 --> 00:46:00.679
And I see that article two thirty. I agree with percent yes, but

522
00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:09.880
again that's that's a that's a plausible
that deniability instrument institutionalized exactly, Yeah,

523
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:14.239
and we need to change it.
Well, and of course you know it

524
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:17.239
cost him some money and and uh
and here it is and of course it

525
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:22.559
served him well, especially now when
they've aligned themselves with one party the power,

526
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:27.199
the party that happens to be in
power. So it works very effectively,

527
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:31.119
Bruce Thatcher is with us and we're
talking about his new book Too Big,

528
00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:36.239
How to Tell and how to get
more accountability. Bruce, in these

529
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:38.280
last three and a half minutes that
we have together, I'm going to let

530
00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:45.719
you summarize and help us understand what
the takeaway should be and what we should

531
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:51.119
draw from this. Because accountability starts
with me and you, doesn't it,

532
00:46:51.119 --> 00:46:57.519
it does we. We each of
us have our own chaine of accountability.

533
00:46:57.639 --> 00:47:06.119
Were accountability somebody or something at Those
who have deep religious beliefs feel an accountability

534
00:47:06.159 --> 00:47:10.320
to the god. But Rockefeller was
one of those, and that's easy to

535
00:47:10.440 --> 00:47:17.360
rationalize a way, and I think
there's always the temptation to do that.

536
00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:24.199
I think what we have to do
is realize that we want accountability even from

537
00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:30.719
powerful people. Realize it's a very
natural thing for them to be in a

538
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:36.440
position of power so that they can
avoid most accountability. It's natural, it's

539
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:43.239
not evil people behave that way,
and then, understanding that, say well,

540
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:50.719
what can we do to improve the
accountability of those situations. What can

541
00:47:50.760 --> 00:47:55.920
we do about the relationships between boards
of directors and chief executive officers, What

542
00:47:55.960 --> 00:48:07.119
can we do between the relationships independent
agencies in the government and the entities to

543
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:13.159
which they presumably report, but they
never do exactly and think about those things,

544
00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:19.400
and there are some things we can
do. We cannot make everybody accountable.

545
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:28.159
Individuals will be accountable as much as
they want to be, or feel

546
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:31.159
that it's in their nature to be, or as much as they feel it's

547
00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:36.960
the right thing to do. But
there's always always going to be powerful people

548
00:48:37.519 --> 00:48:43.039
who rationalize around those things or deliberately
go around those things exactly. So let's

549
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:45.400
do the things we can. And
there there are some well, Bruce,

550
00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:50.679
I believe that there needs to be
a clear infrastructure. I believe we have

551
00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:53.159
some of those, you know,
when they call them laws and other boundaries

552
00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:58.760
that need to be adhered to,
and when said laws are violated, then

553
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:02.079
there needs to be immediate punishment.
You know. It's it's like the Book

554
00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:07.639
of ecclesiastic says that because you know
punishment, you know, or sin is

555
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:13.480
not punished immediately, it gets complicated, it's snowballs. And this is where

556
00:49:13.519 --> 00:49:17.719
we are right now, is that
accountability is something that must be exercised with

557
00:49:17.800 --> 00:49:22.639
more of a sense of urgency,
is the way I read it, Bruce.

558
00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:27.280
I'm gonna let you summarize and take
us out right now to wrap everything's

559
00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:30.880
up in terms of a final conclusion. Go ahead. I think I think

560
00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:37.079
that we ought to understand the nature
of accountability at high levels, and we

561
00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:45.679
ought to understand that we need to
change laws in particular to improve that accountability.

562
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:50.599
And the changes are not very great, although they would be very significant.

563
00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:52.800
I think we need to do those
things. One of the things I

564
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:55.760
think we understand need to understand is, oh, well we have a law

565
00:49:55.800 --> 00:50:00.599
against that. You know what we
so it's so got so and so company

566
00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:07.119
got fined a billion dollars for us
and such. That's pocket change. Exactly,

567
00:50:07.119 --> 00:50:13.400
it's pocket change. It doesn't mean
anything. And we need to make

568
00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:17.679
the I don't like to call it
the punishment. We may need to make

569
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:27.199
the results fit the situation so that
they so that they cause or so that

570
00:50:27.239 --> 00:50:34.639
people will be aware of them and
behave in a more accountable fashion. Exactly.

571
00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:39.079
Well. Bruce Thatcher, author of
the book Too Big, How to

572
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:44.119
Tell and How to Get More Accountability
of the book is available at all the

573
00:50:44.199 --> 00:50:49.920
usual places, and you can go
to Bruce's website Bruce the Website for our

574
00:50:49.960 --> 00:50:55.519
audience, The website is History Speaks
Today dot com and you can find all

575
00:50:55.559 --> 00:50:59.519
the books there. You can find
all the links to where you can get

576
00:50:59.559 --> 00:51:05.280
them, and we're happy to see
you join it. Well. Bruce Thatcher,

577
00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:07.920
I cannot thank you enough. Appreciate
the time, my friend, you

578
00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:12.119
take care. You're two Our thanks
to Bruce Thatcher for being with us today.

579
00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:15.599
For more information and to be a
part of this mighty Martinez movement to

580
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:19.360
return to God and to save our
country, go to Bill Martine's show dot

581
00:51:19.400 --> 00:51:22.519
com. May God bless you and
keep you, make his face shine upon

582
00:51:22.639 --> 00:51:25.320
you, and may He be gracious
unto you and give you peace. Thank

583
00:51:25.360 --> 00:51:28.400
you so much for being with us. Have a great day.