The Politically Incorrect Guide to The Supreme Court

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to those show hosts. Thank you for

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choosing W FORCY Radio. Well,
good afternoon, Bill Martinez here. Great

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to have you with us, sharing
a part of your day. For more

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information on the show, you can
check it out Bill Martinez Show dot Com.

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Our next guest, he and his
partner John You have come together to

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write the politically Incorrect Guide to the
Supreme Court. You know, presidents come

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and go, but the Supreme Court
goes on forever, so says William Howard

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Taft Robert de la Hunt. Welcome
to the show. Good to have you

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with us, sir. Thank you
Bill here. Well, let's you let

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me chat with you you and your
audience. Well, this is in light

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of all the conversation about the Supreme
Court these days. The book has a

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little edge to it, which is
fine, and I think that's the that's

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the title, the politically incorrect Guide
to the Supreme Court. But you know,

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there's a serious side of the Supreme
Court. So maybe let's delve into

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that. To begin with, Robert
is uh, you know, the origins

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of the Supreme Court and according to
the Constitution, what are its specific duties.

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Well, we wrote this book for
to be user friendly and to reach

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a very broad audience. We think
that a lot of people are interested in

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the workings and the history of the
US Supreme Court, and so we wanted

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to use a friendly guide that would
still be legally fairly sophisticated, not just

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for lawyers, but for the general
public. And the United States Supreme Court

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obviously plays a very important role in
our society and in our system of government.

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In some ways, it's a uniquely
American experiment. The Constitution in its

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third article provides that there shall be
a Supreme Court. It doesn't mention whether

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there are going to be lower full
courts. It leaves that to Congress,

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but there shall be a Supreme Court. And it was fairly decided by the

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Supreme Court in eighteen hundred and three
in a major case called Barbara v.

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Madison, the Court had the power
to review Acts of Congress and determined if

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they squared up with the Constitution,
and if they didn't, the Court said

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it had the power to strike those
Acts of Congress down, to invalidate them,

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to make them void and unenforceable.
That's an enormous power and it really

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hasn't been seriously challenged since eighteen hundred
and three. It is in the Constitution,

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not expressly, not in so many
words, but by implication. Yeah,

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exactly. Well, Robert, as
you say, we need an umpire.

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I mean, it's all about checks
and balances. That's the way that

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the Constitution was designed so that you
wouldn't have power residing in any one of

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you know, of the legs of
government, right exactly. The Constitution sets

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up three major branches of the federal
government, and it leaves room for the

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states which existed before the federal government. And the three branches are Article one,

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convers Article to President, Article three, the federal courts, and they're

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all supposed to the aids can be
working for the people. And the role

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of the court is as you say, to be like an empire, to

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call falls and strikes, and to
make sure particularly that the other two branches

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and itself stay in the right lanes, that they carry out the duties the

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Constitution and trust to them, but
they don't approach on each other's authority or

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on the states exactly. Well,
you know, we're seeing, you know,

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the Court becoming more and more insignificant
in this modern era. But there

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was I guess the original design of
the Court was that it was supposed to

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be quote unquote the least dangerous right. Yes, where the people the country

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were considering whether to adopt this then
new Constitution in seventeen eighty seven, as

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a set of papers written by founders, including Alexander Hamilton, had tried to

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explain to the voters, especially in
New York State, what the constitution would

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do, what changes it would make, and Hamilton said that he expected the

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judiciary to be the weakest branch.
Now it isn't really, it's coequal with

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the others. But he had two
reasons for thinking it would be the weakest

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branch. First of all, it
couldn't enforce its orders. It would have

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to depend on enforcement activity by the
Presidency, by the executive branch. And

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second, it was supposed to be
unpolitical, which meant it could be attacked

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by a president, by members of
Congress, by Congress as a body not

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really in a position to reply and
defend itself. That would damage its integrity,

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its independence. It's unpolitical character.
So it had those vulnerabilities. Yeah,

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exactly. And and the thing is, I'm sorry, go ahead,

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Robert, I'm sorry. I cut
you a good time. The American people

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have come to consider it legitimate affair
and dependent and to respect it. So

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they're limit politically to how far it's
critics and Congress or the presidents can go.

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Well, the long history of the
Supreme Court, as you suggest,

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even in this current court, seems
kind of even out things. I mean,

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when they can stay out of the
political realm, it seems that that's

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when it's when the courts is at
its best. Is that fair to say?

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Absolutely right? And one of the
intentions, and I would say achievements

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of the current Supreme Court, which
has the new appointees under Donald Trump,

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one of their great programs and achievements
is to keep apart law and politics and

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to stay clear of politics, to
leave that to the other two elected branches.

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Of the government and simply hold true
to the law, acquires the Constitution

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and Acts of Congress. Robert as
an attorney, You and John both,

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I mean, this is this is
what you've been living, breathing, and

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eating most of your life in law
order. You know, the Supreme Court

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as well. In this book is
such a great asset, and I believe

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a blessing, you know, to
all Americans, because it helps bring into

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focus things that I'll guarantee you they
didn't learn in school. Well, that's

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very very kind of you to say. I mean, both of us have

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taught constitutional law and practiced it.
I began practicing constitutional law in nineteen eighty

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six when I went to work for
the US Department of Justice. That is

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where I met John You. He
is now teaching at Berkeley Law School out

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in California. I left the Justice
Department in two thousand and four and went

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to work to teach at a law
school of Minneapolis, University of Saint Thomas

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School of Law, and I taught
constitutional law there for seventeen years. Who

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so we both practiced it and taught
it, and we've written about it extensively.

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This is our first book together about
constitutional law. But we come from

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a background in the subject. Yes, you know well, well, Robert,

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address this dynamic tension in law schools
amongst the judges, the difference between

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a constitutionalists allah the you know,
the DNA of you know of Nino uh,

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you know the justice that passed away, or you know more of an

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activist judge, you know, by
comparison, you know, like rbg Oh,

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that's a really great question. Broadly
speaking, there are two approaches to

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interpreting the Constitution. We remember the
Constitution as a document, and documents required

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to be interpreted, and then if
they stipulate laws, they need to be

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applied to. The two originalism and
living constitutionalism. And the Court, in

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our opinion rightly has been trending towards
originalism for the past teca or more.

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And that is the view that when
constitution and you read it, you interpret

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the words in the ordinary understanding they
had when they became part of the Constitution.

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People debated, let's say, the
First Amendment, the Second Amendment.

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They debated it. They understood it
to have a certain meaning, they understood

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it to carry certain appifications. That's
the meaning that the courts should still give

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to that language in the Constitution.
There's a process for changing the law,

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but if that process hasn't been used, then the laws days as it was

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at the time the language was adopted. The other view gives courts and the

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judges, who remember are not elected
a federal system tremendously way to interpret the

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constitu tuition as they see fit in
the light of their personal subjective values or

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their perception of the needs of the
time. So it really empowers the judges

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to go broadly speaking what they please
within rather lose self imposed limits. And

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often, it seems to me,
in trying to update the Constitution to make

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it correspond to what they see as
contemporary needs, they get it wrong and

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they lock in interpretation that as things
evolve, comes to be itself a kind

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of constraint. It's self a kind
of obstacle to meeting current needs well.

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And I think that's what where we
ran into trouble with, you know,

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with Dobbs Roe v Wade, certainly
affirmative action. And this is I guess

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where it's helpful to understand, and
you're so instrumental here, I believe,

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Robert, and I appreciate you coming
on the show to help us understand this

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dynamic process that occurs in the court, in the Supreme Court and filters on

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down and this idea of originalism,
and that's you know, I don't necessarily

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I mean, I I tend I'm
in terms of my understanding and where I

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like to land. I like to
land on the side of originalism, and

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I believe in the Constitution that is
the standard. That's the first principle.

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You weigh the decisions, what you
know, in alignment with the Constitution,

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the act on the activist side,
the interpretive side. Emotion, like you

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say, the realm of the day, and you know, can influence and

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interpretation. But it seems that when
we are more in that side, and

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I don't I don't want to make
one, there is that conflict. But

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I mean, the difference of the
two is I guess what I'm trying to

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say is that it seems that when
we're consistent with originalism, the laws,

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the way they're interpreted, and the
satisfaction by most of the people seems to

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be more in alignment with originalism than
when a judge starts bringing in, you

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know, some of their ideas that
are outside of the boundaries of the Constitution.

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Is that fair to say? I
think that is fair to say.

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I mean, let's take an example
from the Second Amendment. Now you will

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hear people say I've heard this quite
a lot. Well, why should we

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accept the view of the seventeen nineties
yea about guns. Maybe people thought in

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the seventeen nineties when the Second Amendment
was adopted that there might be a British

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invasion from Canada. Nobody thinks that
today we should allow much more liberal gun

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control regulations. Well, let's look
at the language of the Second Amendment.

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The key part, the operative part, says the right of the people to

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keep and bear arms shall not be
infringed. Clear and today what it meant

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in seventeen nineties, there's nothing particularly
our pain. You might dispute, well,

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should the people be understood individually or
collectively? But it's easy to interpret

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that language in a natural way.
And by recognizing gun rights you are actually

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keeping current with people's needs, because
more and more we see law enforcement breaking

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down or not really being carried through
as it should be, and people buy

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guns and keep guns in their homes
in case of an emergency, in case

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they need to protect themselves or their
families or their property. So the original

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language, the original public meaning of
that language I quoted and current needs mesh.

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And if you had judges deciding what
the limits of gun control regulation should

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be and allowing enormous relation, well, arguably the effect of that is to,

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uh, you know, disarm ordinary
law biding citizens and allow the pills

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to carry weapons and use them.
Well, and that clearly seems to be

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the case. I mean when you
look at the statistics, you know,

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to back up your point here,
uh, you know, you read the

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manifestos of the shooters who go in
and kill people, and they're very specific

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about making sure that they find a
place where there's a sense of I guess

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comfort on there and that they're not
going to run into somebody else with a

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gun. That's tragically the case.
Yes, yeah, and so exactly so,

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I you know, I appreciate you
reminding us where we are, but

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again being true to the constitute.
You know, to the constitution, Uh,

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you know, it clearly states that
that is our right. And this

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is why more and more states Roberts
are just saying, look at you have

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a con situation, don't carry right. You don't need a permit, you

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don't need any other licensing or you
know, a special card to carry around.

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You're a citizen of the United States, and thus you have every right

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to exercise your second amendment right.
Yeah. Now, there will be some

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limits, and there will be all
where the states and cities can regulate guns

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guns within some reasonable limits. The
Court has made that clear. It hasn't

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said that all gun controlled regulation is
invalid, but in the cases before it

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it thought the jurisdictions had gone too
far. There's a case coming up next

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term will speak about whether people who
are serious threats of causing domestic violence and

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who have a record of gun violence
the bard of right to use keep guns.

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There are going to be questions,
but broadly speaking, there is a

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press right in keep invariance in the
Bill of Rights exactly that has to be

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knowledged. Yeah. You know,
the fact of the matter is again true

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to our constitution. We have a
right to life, liberty, and the

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pursuit of happiness. And we have
the self responsibility and right to protect our

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property because the Constitution was about you
know, our property, our persons,

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you know, our our sense of
peace, and the government is to ensure

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ensure those elements for it. Are
they not well? Yes, And I

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would say that the current court has
done a good job of protecting people's property

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rights. There was a case this
term of an elderly lady from Indiapolis who

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didn't feel safe any longer in her
condo, and so with the help of

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her family, she was moved into
an assisted living center condo by she fell

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in arrears on her taxes, but
after a couple of years, the city

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sold off her condo. Too had
a right to do and pay the debt

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that she showed in back taxes,
but it kept the rest, which was

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her money. It said, you
know, we sold the condo for maybe

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I think it was forty five thousand
dollars, and we kept your back taxes

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and maybe twenty five thousand, but
we're keeping it all. And so the

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court said, no, that's not
your property. That belongs to her,

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and we're going to make sure that
she gets it. So get that's in

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the constitution. It's in the fifth
Amendment that the government cannot take your property,

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and that excess was her property.
It cannot take it without just compensation.

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In this case, it was cash, so she got the cash exactly.

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I'm for the lady. It's a
great, great decision. We supported

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like that it's like, you know, the Bible says, when righteousness reigns,

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the people rejoice. So when when
things happen in the courts fall in

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line in ways that are consistent with
the values of the heritage of this country,

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unless we forget the heritage of this
country, the woof and warp is

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so entwined in Judeo Christian principles.
Right, absolutely, yes, it is.

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Yes, Well, we're regarding you
know, I want to revisit the

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First Amendment, right, because there
were some decisions that came up in terms

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of freedom of religion and expression and
what we could do with our creativity and

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in the marketplace, and how we're
not to infringe and be prejudiced towards others,

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but we're not to violate our conscience
either, And I was grateful that

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the courts protected our conscience in the
process. So I M you're referring to

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case call three or three Creativity,
which came out of Colorado. It started

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00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:10.039
out as a freedom of religion and
freedom of speech case. The court severed

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00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:14.400
the freedom of religious aspect and it
focused on the free speech. But the

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00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:22.319
plaintiff, who was planning to stop
a web design business, was a Christian,

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and she was afraid that if she
started business, someone would approach her

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and ask for a web design for
a same sex wedding. And this involved

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her talent, her art, her
creativity. It's like having a photographer to

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your wedding album. You know,
the photographer makes judgments about settings, about

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lightings, about what events deserve to
be photographed. All of this requires judgment

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and expressive the skill, and I
think the thing is true for a web

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00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:06.359
designer, and it was not the
case. Was not the case that she

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said she wouldn't serve gay or lesbian
customs. If you wanted her to design

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a website for your widget and you
told you were gay, it wouldn't matter.

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And it also didn't matter if you
were not getting right. But you

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came to her for a website design
that offended her religious faith. She was

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not work for people who wanted to
tap in to her expressive skill and artistry

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to do things that offended against her
faith and her conscious exactly want. It

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00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:42.200
just caused an uproar, and frankly, I cannot understand why this is absolute

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00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:48.319
constitutional bedcock. You go back to
the nineteen bardies and you find the Supreme

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00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:55.519
Court saying people. The government cannot
put words into people's mouths. It cannot

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00:20:55.880 --> 00:21:00.720
make them say things that they find
objectionable or grounds of conscience. If it's

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00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:06.799
in the nineteen forties, exactly,
schools, public schools who were Jehovah's business,

238
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:11.200
who could not write the pledge of
allegiance because they thought that was worshiping

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00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.799
Caesar or not God. It's just
too bad for the public school districts.

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00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:19.680
They cannot make those children swear out
something that is a game. Well,

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00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:22.759
we gotta hit the pause button here
right now. Robert, forgive me.

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00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.279
We got to go to break.
We'll pick it up on the other side.

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00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:40.640
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Well. Some would say that the Supreme

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00:25:23.160 --> 00:25:30.079
Court decisions recently were controversial, but
when you look at it, and certainly

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00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:34.200
the polling on this, Robert de
la Hunt would suggest that the majority of

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00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:41.319
Americans sided with the Supreme Court and
thought their decisions about affirmative action, big

295
00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:45.799
tech, social media, and the
First Amendment that were decided this summer was

296
00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:49.440
a good thing for this country.
The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Supreme Court

297
00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:52.920
by John Yu and Robert de la
Hunty, our guests right now, is

298
00:25:53.000 --> 00:25:56.440
becoming the go to guide to breaking
down everything you need to know about Scout

299
00:25:56.559 --> 00:26:02.000
is pasted in present to be the
informed America who can see the truth make

300
00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:07.640
a difference. It's written by law
professors devoted to defending the Constitution. Readers

301
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:12.200
are going to gain trustworthy expertise.
Trust me, this is it really is.

302
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:17.240
You know. You see as you
read this book, you have this

303
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:21.319
sense that, Okay, I'm starting
to get it. The right bricks are

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00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:25.079
falling in the place. And I
got to tell you, Robert, in

305
00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:29.559
reading your book, it reinforced,
at least in my heart, in my

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00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:33.880
mind, the love for our Constitution
and the brilliance and the divine hand of

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00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:41.920
God that was upon our founders in
putting this document together. It is a

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00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:47.920
magnificent document. It's trustless, and
it has shaped the course of the history

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00:26:47.960 --> 00:26:52.359
of the American people, and it
has helped to ensure that this country,

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00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:59.640
for too long, has remained free
and pros and powerful. Bill. You

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00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:03.559
mentioned the polling about the recent Supreme
Court decisions. This term, and it's

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00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:08.200
an interesting question, an interesting point. The Supreme Court, obviously to be

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00:27:08.359 --> 00:27:14.920
independent, to be above the political
fray, cannot be guided by the polls.

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00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.799
Otherwise we wouldn't need a Supreme Court
where doesn't need Pew or Gallop.

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00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:26.319
But it is interesting that this term, the polls show a very clear popular

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00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:33.079
support for its decision on affirmative action
the Harvard or University of North Carolina case.

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00:27:33.160 --> 00:27:37.119
And it's interesting. One poll I
saw said there was a twenty point

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00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:45.200
spread between those who favored the decision
and those who opposed it. That's a

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00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:52.559
very significant but it's consistent findings over
years and even decades that most people not

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00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:57.599
a proof of racial discrimination admission to
higher education. And what is equally interesting,

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00:27:57.680 --> 00:28:02.960
I think is that Paul I read
yesterday or the day before showed that

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00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:07.599
the majority of African Americans also prove
of the Supreme Court's decision in the Harvard

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00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:15.480
case. It's basically the law of
the land that in this country the government

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00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:21.680
has to be color blinded. Cannot
take account of your rates in giving out

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00:28:21.759 --> 00:28:26.119
benefits or in imposing burdens. Let
me give you a simple example. I

326
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:30.359
think it's intuitive, but it makes
the point that really the Supreme Court was

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00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:34.000
trying to get at. Suppose you're
waiting to get a driver's license at the

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00:28:34.119 --> 00:28:38.960
Department of Motor Vehicles, and as
usual, it's extremely crowded, and you

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00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:42.079
know there are law queues to get
to the counter, and when you get

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00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.519
to the counter, they say,
go to the next counter. We can't

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00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:49.039
help you here. Okay. So
suppose one of the clerks comes out from

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00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:56.240
behind the counter and points to the
third, seventh, and twenty eighth person

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00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:00.079
being in the queue. That's two
hundred longs. All come over here,

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00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.759
I'll give you a fast service.
Because of your race or because of your

335
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:11.680
fair is exactly who thinks that that's
the American way of doing business? It

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00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:15.039
isn't right. It hasn't been since
the fourteenth de Man, who was ratified

337
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:19.839
after the Civil War. Now,
in practice, have we lived up to

338
00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:23.240
that promise, to that law.
No, we certainly have not, And

339
00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:27.279
that, as the book shows,
was largely the fault of the Supreme Court

340
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:32.359
of the nineteenth century. But as
a society and as a legal system,

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00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:41.039
we have been making a fundamental course
correction, and this decision puts the seal

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00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:45.599
on that. It says as far
as the government goes, your race is

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00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:51.160
immaterial. It should not be a
factor in the decision making of government,

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00:29:51.279 --> 00:29:56.039
universities, or of those that received
funds from the federal government exactly, Robert,

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00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:59.720
I think this is such a huge
victory for humanity. I mean,

346
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.279
that's what we all want. We
want the freedom to be the best we

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00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:07.319
can be, to be judged,
as Martin Luther King said, not based

348
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:10.200
on the color of our skin,
but on the content of our character.

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00:30:10.599 --> 00:30:12.680
I mean, you know, and
people often use that, but you know,

350
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:17.680
you have to believe it. And
I think that what the Supreme Court

351
00:30:17.799 --> 00:30:22.200
did was kind of turn a light
back on the truth and on those things

352
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:30.480
that would greatly benefit the citizenry.
And I think it was a huge victory,

353
00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:33.160
you know, for those of us
who have lived by the code of

354
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:40.160
hard work and commitment to having a
fair chance to win. We love this

355
00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:44.519
country because of the opportunity that is
before us. This is why so many

356
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.880
millions of people, you know,
are dying literally to get into this country,

357
00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:53.240
illegally included, because it is that
it still is that light, as

358
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:59.799
John Winter declared on a hill,
it's that beacon that goes forth and says,

359
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:03.119
you know, liberty resides here,
but we need to protect it and

360
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:07.079
understand that liberty is a full circle, just like what we're going through here

361
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:11.319
with affirmative action. It's a full
circle. You go through the experiences and

362
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:15.240
like I I share with my kids
all the time, I said, experience

363
00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:18.440
defines preference, and I believe the
country has gone through the experience of what

364
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:22.039
affirmative action did. They knew it
was a little rough to begin with.

365
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:26.000
It It wasn't going to hold water. It was kind of a band aid.

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00:31:26.359 --> 00:31:30.039
Uh, you know, application,
it was not going to you know,

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00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:33.720
really heal the problem. But thank
god, it's like through the experience,

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00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:37.160
we've come to that point to realize
that, yeah, we've got to

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00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:41.599
we've got to have a level playing
field. Let everybody go and you know,

370
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:45.920
be the best they can be and
be measured on merit, not on

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00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:52.680
the color of their skin or their
sexuality. Exactly Injustice Scalia some years ago

372
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:57.839
said, and again in terms of
the government in this country, we have

373
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:02.359
one race that's American right now.
You can be and you should be,

374
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:08.519
and we encourage you to be some
other have some other ethnic or racial identity

375
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:14.319
too, But in the eyes of
the government there's one race here, which

376
00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:20.960
is the American race, the amerriment
people. And we all understand that some

377
00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:27.279
minorities, some racial minorities, have
serious educational deficits. But I don't think

378
00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:30.759
that they are fixed at the college
level, or at the level of Harvard

379
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:37.400
or UNC they're fixed. And this
is the point Justice Ginsburg made in her

380
00:32:37.480 --> 00:32:40.559
opinion in the Grutter case in two
thousand and three. It's a liberal point

381
00:32:40.599 --> 00:32:45.759
as well a conservative point. You
cure the deficits by looking at the quality

382
00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:50.319
of education from K through twelve.
You don't. You don't kick the can

383
00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:52.880
on the road. In the Rutter
case, the Court said, we're going

384
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:58.559
to sunset affirmative action twenty five ys
from now. Okay, well it's twenty

385
00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:02.039
years. But as an experiment of
the court seem to think, as a

386
00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:08.319
social experiment, it was not succeeding. It was not creating sustainable rates of

387
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:15.920
minority admissions that could hold true if
you drew preferences. So and does you

388
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:21.759
know and that all makes perfect sense, both as a matter of law and

389
00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:27.160
as a matter of social policy.
Robert de la Hunte, we touched on

390
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:29.680
this a little bit, and we've
got a couple of minutes left in this

391
00:33:29.799 --> 00:33:34.599
segment, and I wanted to address, you know, this tension between you

392
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:39.480
know, an impartial Supreme Court and
the rise of the administrative state that's really

393
00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:45.640
pushing on these decisions, right it
is, And this is where I think

394
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:51.240
in the next term or two you're
going to see the most controversy and the

395
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:54.680
most interest in what the Court does. I mean, we have a problem

396
00:33:54.839 --> 00:34:01.039
with Congress, which often wants to
pass the buck and doesn't want to make

397
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:09.280
controversial, politically costly decisions about national
policy, let's say, particularly environmental policy.

398
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:15.559
So they write statutes that are completely
meaningless, and they hand off the

399
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:22.440
decision making to administrators. For they
write statutes or self contradictory and they leave

400
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:27.440
it to the administrators to figure out
what to do. And this is not

401
00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:30.000
a good way to run a road. I mean, we elect people to

402
00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:37.480
Congress to make these tough policy calls, and we don't elect federal bureaucrats.

403
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:43.679
And so one thing the Court has
started to do is to cut back on

404
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:47.840
that and to say, if we're
going to have a forgiveness of four to

405
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:53.440
twenty billion dollars, let's say in
student loans, that's got to be decided

406
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:58.400
by Congress. At least it has
to authorize in the language en agency to

407
00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:07.440
do that. Otherwise we don't we
have our constitutional system or democratic values exactly.

408
00:35:07.719 --> 00:35:08.480
Well, we've got to go to
break. We'll pick it up.

409
00:35:08.679 --> 00:35:13.199
We've got more to talk about.
It's especially looking in ahead. Where do

410
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:17.719
we go from here? And we're
privileged to have the constitutional law Professor Robert

411
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:22.719
de la Hunt with us, and
our conversation will continue after this. Thank

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That's eight hundred eight nine oh seventy
eighty eight. Hey, thank you

451
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for being with us. I'm Bill
Martinez. I got an interesting email from

452
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:51.639
a viewer the other day said,
Bill, you know, I noticed that,

453
00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:55.800
you know, you have this campaign
going for truth in liberty? Can

454
00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:01.480
I donate you know the tax you
know, for a tax deduction? Absolutely.

455
00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:06.320
You know, our show's a nonprofit
entity. It's under Hill of Hope.

456
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:10.079
It's a viable one c three,
a public nonprofit organization. So all

457
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:15.280
donations that you contribute to the show
in our campaign for truth and liberty can

458
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:19.440
be tax deductible. So you know, if you've got some end of the

459
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:23.079
years, some i RS issues and
you need a tax deduction, we're happy

460
00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:28.320
to be there to serve you in
any way possible to make things a little

461
00:39:28.320 --> 00:39:30.519
bit easier. So, by all
means, check it out. Go to

462
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:34.239
Bill Martinez show dot com right there, hit the donate button, and we

463
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:37.760
thank you in advance for however God
should move your heart, or however you

464
00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:43.480
should need to use this for income
tax purposes, and that we're happy and

465
00:39:43.639 --> 00:39:47.400
here to serve. Robert Dela Hunt, the constitutional professor, continues with us.

466
00:39:47.639 --> 00:39:52.760
We're talking about his brand new book. He and John you have blessed

467
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:55.280
us with I say, it's a
blessing because this is something that you haven't

468
00:39:55.320 --> 00:40:00.639
learned in school. And probably there's
too many attorneys, Robert, I would

469
00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:05.679
dare say that could benefit from this
book. It's a quick read. We

470
00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:08.800
know, we have a lot of
attorneys that are participating in the legislative branch

471
00:40:08.840 --> 00:40:13.679
of our government. They have a
hard time reading the bills that are presented

472
00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:17.639
because of the administer strait of state
and uh and I guess, you know,

473
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:22.920
the las day fair attitude about their
responsibility to make sure that they read

474
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:27.760
the dog gone bills. I mean, it's just just amazing to me.

475
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:30.480
But maybe this will be a quick
enough read for them and a good refresher,

476
00:40:31.239 --> 00:40:35.199
you know, for them to realize, you know, the job,

477
00:40:35.840 --> 00:40:42.039
the outstanding job the Supreme Court has
done on our behalf. In conclusion in

478
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:46.280
your book, and you say,
going forward, you see a turning point.

479
00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:51.920
And I think that there has been
an adjustment, you know, especially

480
00:40:52.000 --> 00:40:54.639
in this current court. And I
can understand some viewers might say, well,

481
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:58.480
Bill, you're a conservative and you
kind of like the way that things

482
00:40:58.519 --> 00:41:02.920
are coming down right now, and
and I get that, and I don't

483
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:07.079
want to be happy at the expense
of your misery. I think that we

484
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:12.119
need to come to a point and
understand that the levers of our government should

485
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:15.880
work for all Americans. As Robert
had said earlier, this is about America.

486
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:20.480
This isn't about the Republican Party,
the Democratic Party, or independence.

487
00:41:20.840 --> 00:41:24.400
This is about this great American idea
that our founding fathers put into motion,

488
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:30.360
and they gave us these beautiful documents, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution,

489
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:34.440
which is our roadmap, our roadmap
to life, liberty, and the

490
00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:37.800
pursuit of happiness. So, Robert, here we are two hundred and forty

491
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:43.599
seven years later. We've had some
course adjustments. I see it as as

492
00:41:43.719 --> 00:41:49.400
being positive. I'm hopeful for the
Court. I'm hopeful for America because hopefully

493
00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:53.320
through these, you know, these
adjustments that have been made, that we

494
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:58.480
the people, you know, can
can see the benefit of it. What

495
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:01.159
do you say, I agree with
all of that, Bill. Let me

496
00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:07.280
just take one point about conservatism.
There's political conservatism and there's judicial conservatism.

497
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:12.320
How the Supreme Court should not be
politically conservative, and I think it is

498
00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:15.079
making an honest effort not to be
this term. It came down with several

499
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:20.320
major decisions that actually, in the
view of commentators, tend to break in

500
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:24.079
favor of the Democratic Party, including
a voting rights decision in Alabama which may

501
00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:31.159
create an additional African American dominated congressional
Alabama. That's what the Supreme Court Judicial

502
00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:37.559
conservatism is something else. Again.
It requires you to read the Constitution in

503
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:42.039
according to a certain method, which
we've discussed originalism, that can give you

504
00:42:42.280 --> 00:42:47.639
results that are actually pretty liberal in
terms of social policy. Or let's take

505
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:53.519
abortion. You might completely agree with
the Supreme Court's decision and dobs that abortion

506
00:42:53.719 --> 00:42:59.360
is not in the Constitution, but
still be a pro abortion activist in your

507
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:05.559
state. Right. And there's a
difference there between legal and political conservatism,

508
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:09.400
and we want the Court to be
legally conservative whether it's politically conservative or not.

509
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:14.239
That's not a stop right. Well, you know, I think that

510
00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:17.239
sometimes people look to the Court like
like when they were growing up. You

511
00:43:17.320 --> 00:43:20.440
know, if you didn't get the
right answer for a mom, you ran

512
00:43:20.519 --> 00:43:23.199
to dad. Right. Conversely,
and it's like, wait a minute,

513
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:25.360
you know, we need to grow
up. That's not what the Court's here

514
00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:29.559
for. The Court is not your
mommy and your daddy, right, No,

515
00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:32.519
it wants to keep the brands of
the government in the States in their

516
00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:37.760
right lane. In the student debt
forgiveness case, for example, the Chief

517
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:43.440
Justice actually said something very close to
that. We're not here to decide whether

518
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:47.119
student debt forgiveness is a good policy
or a bad policy. There are dozens,

519
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:52.360
they not hundreds, of bills before
Congress they make the policy call.

520
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:57.679
What we do is route the traffic. We keep the branches of the government

521
00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:01.119
in the right lane. It's not
for the second of branch boon to make

522
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:07.039
this decision. It's for Congress working
executives. Really our decision we decide.

523
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:12.159
It's the second order decision. We
decide makes the decision. We don't make

524
00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:15.599
the decision exactly well. And I
think that you know, when you hear

525
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:22.000
some legislators like AOC for example,
really demonstrate their ignorance, and it inflames

526
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:27.400
people. It gives people the wrong
information. It's interesting the sensitivity of social

527
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:32.559
media and the mainstream media and trying
to manage somehow become traffic cops for misinformation.

528
00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:37.400
I think when they try to manage
it, they actually end up doing

529
00:44:37.559 --> 00:44:44.519
just the opposite of what's intended.
You know, speaking about her and members

530
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:45.880
of Congress like her, and some
are on the right as well as on

531
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:50.840
the left. The problem, one
of them big problems we have with Congress

532
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:54.599
is that we have too many show
ponies and not enough workhorses. Amen,

533
00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:59.960
as they were less interested in grabbing
headlines and more interested in doing the work

534
00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:04.679
in committee rooms to work out differences
and come up with compromises. This country

535
00:45:04.719 --> 00:45:07.239
with the whole a lot better run. Yeah. Could you imagine there was

536
00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:12.400
to do? We just did their
job, Robert, what you're saying exactly?

537
00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:16.239
What? Yes? Yeah, yes, yeah, And this idea if

538
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:19.360
you don't get your way, then
I'm gonna threat you. I'm going to

539
00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:22.320
threaten you with court packing, or
we're gonna come and come after you and

540
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:25.320
impeach you and go through all this
stuff. I mean, how does that

541
00:45:25.480 --> 00:45:30.440
serve the people? What are the
priceless things we've had in this country is

542
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:36.719
a history of independence of the courts
from the political system, and that has

543
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:40.559
helped ensure that we remain a free
people. In the entire two hundred and

544
00:45:40.880 --> 00:45:45.159
how many years to do, say
forty seven forty seven years and downing is

545
00:45:45.400 --> 00:45:50.480
our constitution. There's only been one
Supreme Court justice who is impeached and he

546
00:45:50.679 --> 00:45:53.440
was acquitted, and that was eighteen
hundred and three. I think so we

547
00:45:53.639 --> 00:45:59.880
have people on the court in the
past and now who are honorable, who

548
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:04.679
who have integrity, who are smart, who are hard working, whatever their

549
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:08.320
political or legal positions may be.
I trust them all, and I think

550
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:14.960
that we should all wish best and
commended when they stand fast in their views,

551
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:19.159
even when they're threatened with demonstrations in
front of their homes, threats to

552
00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:23.559
the families, or in one case, an assassination exactly, God bless them,

553
00:46:24.039 --> 00:46:28.000
or being brave enough to stand up
for all of us. And the

554
00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:32.840
rhetoric has to be has to be
tapped down significantly. You can't have the

555
00:46:34.039 --> 00:46:38.920
leader of the Senate yelling from the
steps of the Supreme Court in a threatening

556
00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:46.039
manner and absolutely not. It's shocking
and a statements thrown across the belt.

557
00:46:46.119 --> 00:46:50.400
Look, and I understand you may
not agree with the decision, and there's

558
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:53.679
a way to do that with a
sense of civility. The rhetoric has gotten

559
00:46:53.760 --> 00:47:00.559
so dangerous that people start acting on
it and they feel justified as of the

560
00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:05.960
contribution of this very loose language,
very dangerous language that's going out there now.

561
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:09.239
I understand that may run the edge
of freedom of speech. Uh,

562
00:47:09.559 --> 00:47:14.000
you have the ride, you can
you can go ahead, and it's your

563
00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:15.559
choice. You can be an idiot
if you want to. But I just

564
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:20.480
would caution you know, those that
are that are you know, the viewers

565
00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:23.199
here, that it's okay. Emotion
is a good thing, but we don't

566
00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:29.199
want it to get to the point
where it violates the principles and violates you

567
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:34.000
know, the desire and the piece
of mankind around you. If that makes

568
00:47:34.039 --> 00:47:38.360
sense it doesn't. Yeah, well, we've got about just about three minutes

569
00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:43.039
left here, Robert, I want, you know, kind of sum things

570
00:47:43.159 --> 00:47:46.400
up, and in the context of
what would our founders do right now?

571
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:52.039
You address this in the book What
would the founders do? Well, there's

572
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:55.960
a pretty long road back, I
would say, from where we are to

573
00:47:57.079 --> 00:48:01.599
get into a constitution that they would
recognize as the one they made. But

574
00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:05.920
in the last several years, I
think the Supreme Court has traveled a good

575
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:09.320
distance down that road, the road
recovery, let's call it. And I

576
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:15.119
see signs of progress ahead. I
think next year they're going to be handing

577
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:21.960
down maybe three major decisions about the
administrative state. And I hope and expect

578
00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:25.039
that they will turn out well,
and that they will restore power to Congress

579
00:48:25.239 --> 00:48:30.119
where it belongs instead of leaving it
with the federal bureaucracy. I think they

580
00:48:30.159 --> 00:48:37.559
will give us a better definition of
the extent in which jurisdictions can regulate guns.

581
00:48:37.719 --> 00:48:42.039
There is, as I mentioned,
this gun rights case. I don't

582
00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:45.599
know if there's anything currently on the
docket, but they may have to take

583
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:50.119
up in the next year or two
some abortion related case. It's not about

584
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:52.880
right to an abortion, but bob
states can and cannot do, especially when

585
00:48:52.880 --> 00:48:58.559
their citizens travel out of state to
have an abortion or buy drugs through the

586
00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:02.480
mail and bring them into the state. These are all issues that I think

587
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:07.599
are up for decision in the next
couple of years. But what would the

588
00:49:07.679 --> 00:49:13.119
founders say, Well, of course
they'd be very proud to see how well

589
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:16.800
the constitution is last. We've survived
a civil war, exact, survived world

590
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:22.519
wars, so there's reason to hope. But it's going to take work,

591
00:49:22.039 --> 00:49:25.679
and it's going to take work by
all citizens. And people need to read

592
00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:32.599
and think and debate and enjoy even
freedoms that we have exactly, and as

593
00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:37.000
we're often saying on this show,
Robert, You've got to own your own

594
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:39.880
knowledge. Don't just take my word. Will take Robert's words. He's a

595
00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:45.079
constitutional professor. It comes with a
lot more credence than Bill Martinez. But

596
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:49.079
we should not be the last word
in this It should come out of you.

597
00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:52.800
It's how you interpret it. It's
you being motivated nothing. Hopefully,

598
00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:57.440
that's what this conversation has done.
It's motivated you to say, you know

599
00:49:57.519 --> 00:50:00.519
what, I'm going to look into
it. I okay, So forgive your

600
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:04.760
teachers. They didn't give you the
right education. Maybe when it came to

601
00:50:04.840 --> 00:50:07.440
the Constitution and civics and that maybe
you missed out. But you know what

602
00:50:07.599 --> 00:50:12.119
today is today, and you can
be the difference. You can be that

603
00:50:12.400 --> 00:50:17.639
informed voter, that educated participant,
that citizen in this country. That really

604
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:21.719
what we the people is all about. We the people is us. We

605
00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:24.760
can't go on blaming Joe Biden or
anybody else, right Robert, I mean,

606
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:29.400
really, the government that we have
right now, it is on us.

607
00:50:30.760 --> 00:50:32.519
I'm going to give you the final
word as we wrap things up right

608
00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:37.280
now, Robert, go ahead.
Well, I mean that's ultimately the purpose

609
00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:43.639
of this book to help to make
people informed students and informed voters and to

610
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:47.559
use their minds and to use their
mouths, and to speak not just out

611
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:52.840
of their heads, but with information
looking for agreement. I used to say

612
00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:54.440
that to my students in the class. You can think what you want,

613
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but I have good arguments and you
better have logic. That's what we're trying

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to do. Amen. Well,
that's great. Well, congratulations to you

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00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:08.159
and John You on the book.
These are constitutional professors, and we're blessed

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00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:13.280
to have Robert de la Hunt on
the show his book The Supreme Court,

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00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:17.119
The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Supreme
Court from John You and Robert de la

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00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:21.119
Hunt. Robert, thank you so
much for being with us. That is

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00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:23.320
a rap for us. Thank you
for joining us for more information on the

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00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:28.000
show and to be a part of
this mighty Martinez movement to return to God

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00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:30.840
and to save our country. Check
it out Bill Martinez Show dot com.

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00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:34.119
May God bless you and keep you, and make His face shine upon you.

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00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:37.559
Go and be blessed beyond your imagination. Thanks for joining us. Take care,