June 23, 2026

The Bill Martinez Show 06 23 26

Transcript

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Are you ready?

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Yeah, okay, is doing Ill Martinez Live a program about

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current events, our culture, our values, our politics, and our future.

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And now Bill Martinez.

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Wel good morning America. Glad you could join us six

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minutes after the top of the alt right now. I'm

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Bill Martinez. He's Peter Johnston, author of his new book,

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Negotiating with Trump. And what a perfect book right now

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with all that the president has been doing and negotiating

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peace once again and again, all the events around here

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run and we're going to have fun discussing, you know,

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the lessons on power, influence and dealing with extreme bargainers

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as you write. Peter, Welcome, Michelle. Good to have you

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with us.

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It's my pleasure to be here. Thank you for having

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me on your show.

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Bill Well, a little background here, ladies and gentlemen. He's

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a leading authority on negotiation and the international best selling

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author of Negotiating with Giants. So been there, done that

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you probably got. If you took your shirt off, we'd

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see all the scars.

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Right, Yeah, you might, but you wouldn't want me to

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take my shirt off now.

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But I understand it. But a lot that you share

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with us is I mean, it's personal. I mean, these

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are adventures experiences that you've gone through that are such

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a blessing. And so, first of all, negotiating with Trump,

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why Trump?

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Trump is the ultimate case example that we all are

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aware of for learning what effective and ineffective negotiation looks like.

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We haven't had a negotiator like this Bill in history,

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who's so high profile, who stakes his personal brand on

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negotiation as a field and whose own state department has

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declared that he's America's greatest fieldmaker ever. So he's a

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great way to learn about negotiation. I wrote the book

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for those two reasons. One is to better understand Trump

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his person an Alley type. The psychology uses his strengths

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and weaknesses so that you can understand him, but you

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can better influence him as a diplomat, business person, or citizen.

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And secondly, I wrote the book so that the average

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person can learn how to negotiate more effectively in their

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own lives based on Trump as a case example.

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Well, exactly, because you know has been said you get

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what you negotiate, right, And a lot of people sometimes

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find themselves unhappy in their careers and the situations that

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they're in because they don't know how to negotiate. This

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is why some high profile people who have the ability

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to hire attorneys negotiate for them right exactly.

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And we're negotiating any time we're trying to influence someone

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to do something, so that doesn't involve lawyers most of

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the time, doesn't involve long contracts. It can just be

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an oral agreement between you and me that I'm coming

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on your show, and for both our sakes reputationally, we

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show up. We don't sign a contract, though, And so

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this is how pervasive negotiation is in our lives, from

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our homes to the international stage. And the lessons are

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all the same, Bill that's the magic of what I

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do for a living.

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Number one lesson for me has always been a negotiation

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should be win win based, because I think that if

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you if somebody has a decided advantage over somebody, you know,

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like for example, what happened in World War One, Okay,

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that wasn't the outcome wasn't necessarily I mean seemingly on

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the surface, it seemed like a good negotiation.

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After being the resolution of the war exactly.

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That's what I'm talking about, for example, So you know,

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expound on that if you would.

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Well you know, I'll touch on that very briefly just

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to say, I want to come back to the win lose,

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win win concept. But treaty of arse verse, I say,

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they should have negotiated in the opposite direction. They should

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have started with negotiating with Germany and decided what was

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appropriate there and then left the rest of the spoils

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to the other nations the victors. Instead, they did the reverse,

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and by the time they got to negotiating with Germany,

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nothing was left for Germany to get, and that's what

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ultimately led to its sense of extreme loss and the

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Second World War. So that's just touching on that piece.

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But coming back to this idea of win win, you

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know a lot of people think that sounds naive and aspirational.

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I say, that's the harsh reality of deal making. If

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the others saw, if I'm negotiating with you and I'm

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just taking everything and not giving you anything, we're not

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going to get a deal. You're going to be unhappy

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with the deal and you're going to exit from it quickly,

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or where it's just going to be a bad deal.

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So this idea of win win, where we're meeting each

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other's interests, this is where President Trump has a lot

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of strengths in influence and negotiation. He's better at informal

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deals often than formal deals like this Iran deal. But

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his mentality of win lose, which he had with Iran

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as soon as he tore up that the Iran nuclear

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deal in twenty eighteen because he felt America didn't win

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enough through that deal without looking what America was getting

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in return, leads him into situations where he's overly aggressive

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trying to win, and it's resulted ultimately, honestly in the

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United States in terms of national interests not winning in

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this negotiation with Iran.

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Right well, And the thing is, in any kind of negotiation,

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you have to have enough respect and trust of, you know,

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for the other person that you're negotiating with. I think

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this is the thing that can lead to a deal

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that's unsustainable, like what happened in Germany, that you create

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so much pain and you violate the integrity of the

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individual in such a degree that they say, Okay, I'm

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just going to sign it to get over with. You

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got me over a barrel, but I'm going to come back,

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you know later. I think the situation in Iran, for example,

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you know Trump is good in terms of what I

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see in terms of dealing with most business situations because

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you know, you both know what you want. At the

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end of the day, you may come at a different angles. Okay,

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you can parse it out and maybe you don't get everything,

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but you still feel, hey, look at I got a

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good deal out of this deal. Iran is untenable. They

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want one thing and one thing only. They want Israel

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gone in America next. So how do you negotiate your demise?

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Well, I think by the way I look at Trump

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in negotiating with Trump, I look at his deal making

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over the past fifty years from business to the political realm,

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and I would say he has approached those negotiations the

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same way and often ineffectively in trying to win and not.

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You know, as you say, the problem with that is

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it doesn't build trust between us when I want you

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to lose and I'm going to win and trust for

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the sustainability of any deal. The lawyers and the contracts matter.

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But as you know, what matters is are both our

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interests being satisfied through that deal and do we have

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that base of trust for allowing us to continue to

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look out for each other over the course of that deal.

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When we look at the Iran deal that's been announced

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and the memorandum of understanding, I look at the how

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and then the what. And the how involves how the

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parties dealt with each other. Why did they come to

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the table in the first place, who was involved, was

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the right level of expertise, there was the breadth and

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depth of negotiation appropriate? And was trust built during the

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process not undermine? Well, when you are forcing someone to

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come to the table by threatening to annihilate them, that

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means that the deal you reach is going to be

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flawed from the very beginning in terms of trust between

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the parties over the long term. And then the second

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piece is you look at the what in Iran and

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I would say there really was no room for agreement

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on this. So as upset as people may be over

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the long term deal, I don't think it's going to happen.

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It's dead on.

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Arrival, because, first of all, Iran, would you give up

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your nuclear your nuclear ambitions if you had been attacked

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twice in an unprovoked manner over the last nine months alone.

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And look at how successful North Korea has been by

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having nuclears. It has not been attacked. And second, the

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strait of horror moves. Would you give up your superpower

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that you've just learned that you fully have your back

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and call and to go in any negotiation when it

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gives you the ultimate power over the world economy and

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the United States of America.

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Gotta go to quick break more from Peter after this, stay.

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for Patriots, Hey, we're back with you.

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Bill Martinez here with Peter Johnson in his book Negotiating

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with Trump. Peter, as we're wrapping up that first segment,

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you're exactly right. You know what they can discern out

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of this. And I always look at whenever I'm negotiating

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with somebody, I look at their tradition. You know, if

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you want to know what somebody will do look at

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what they've done. There is a pattern that's been well established,

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not just in the last five ten years or several.

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I mean this has been you know, thousands of years

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of a pattern of a people, a radical group like this,

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and especially when they have allies like Hesboala and which

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trying to protect in Lebanon, the hu thies, and of

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course we still got Hamas controlling about forty five percent

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of the Gaza. So these are still you know, potential

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firebrands that could explode and really tear up all this negotiation.

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Maybe what you're saying earlier and I discerned and you

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correct me if I'm wrong, is right now. This is

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probably the best we could do with the cards that

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we have available. And this is why Trump had to

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do this.

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I think ultimately, well that didn't have to be the

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case by any means, it was the ultimate case, and

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that this was as good as the United States could

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get and Trump could get given his interest and going

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back to how we can judge this deal and know

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that it's likely to not be followed through on in

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the longer term and the shorter term seems to meet

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both parties interests to buy some time from the fighting

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and the economic chaos.

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But on the how to your point on those proxy

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groups acting on behalf of a reprehensible regime in Iran

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when you don't have them involved in the talks, and

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you don't have Israel involved in the talks because Trump

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likes to do these things on his own. That's the

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downside to not involving others. It's the sustainability of what's

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been agreed is undermined. And that's why I say it's

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very unlikely either side's going to have to deal with

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this in the longer term because it's not going to

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happen as a longer term agreement.

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Well, we've had several ceasefires during this ordeal, and whether

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it's has bel you know, firing missiles. I mean, even

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if you look back over the alleged ceasefires, you know

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we had more fires than cease yes, so right, and so,

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yeah and so. And Israel they've been living with this,

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you know, since they became a nation again and nineteen

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forty eight, Well, they've been attacked by other entities even

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you know, from the day of their birth, you know,

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thousands of years ago. So, but this is intolerable, especially

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after World War two. And all that they went through

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in the Holocaust and what's happened. So you know, all

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it's going to take is Hesbla or the hoodies or

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something again to fire on Israel and Benjamin Netanyah who.

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You know, they're a sovereign nation. They have every right

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to defend themselves, right.

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And I think in part the president thought he was

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doing netna Who a favor by acting as he did

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in the attacks on Iran twice. But in fact, as

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netnya Who has learned, he and Israel are going to

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be big losers in this right, in terms of the

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division between the US and Israel. But you know, when

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you look at the fact that this deal, which Trump

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was really forced to reach after having said, as you said,

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he said so many times, more than thirty times, We're

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going to.

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Have a deal.

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He told his team clearly, just get a deal. Whatever

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the terms are, I don't really care. And when you

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look at the fact that that didn't meet the stated

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national interest on four fronts in any way, that leads

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you to question, well, why did we go to war

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in the first place.

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As the United States well, and it also gives and

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it gives credence to what Barack Obama said that we

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were better off before than we are now. I don't

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quite believe that, but that's his story. He's sticking to it.

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Well, i'll tell you so. Trump takes going to that

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aggressive win lose approach that's called a fixed pie negotiation

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in negotiation terms, where we see the pie as fixed.

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It's a set size, and my job in negotiating with

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you is to win the biggest piece of that pie.

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Another approach that has proven to be much more effective

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because of the lessons of the Second World War you

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referred to, is an expanded pile approach, where we look

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to meet each other's interests and the size of the

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pie through trade, through any negotiation, where we're meeting each

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other's interests so that we can get a bigger slice,

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much bigger slice than we would get through that fighting over.

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Since both of us would get a bigger slice exactly exactly,

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like for example, what happened in Venezuela.

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Right, Well, I don't know how Venezuela ended up with

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a bigger slice there, I'm not sure, but certainly that

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was more of a fixed pie approach. And the president

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brings this fixed pie approach, which limits the value to

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be clear that he's able to achieve through his negotiations.

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He's very good bill at certain things in negotiations, mainly

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and formally. But to start with that mindset of my

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job is to beat you. It leads to people not

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wanting to do business with the president personally, professionally, or

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in national politics. And we've seen that the most successful

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negotiators take an expanded pie. I'll meet your interests, you

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meet mine. Now, going back to what interests have been

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satisfied to the presidents by going into Iran, I think

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a number of those were personal interests. I think he's

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incredibly effective at meeting his own personal interests through all

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of these negotiations. And those interests included a distraction at

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home from the Epstein files, as many have said, looking

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more powerful and authoritative amid an economy that was sputtering

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by trying to look strong militarily, and just in terms

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of grievances with Iran alone, you know, the grievance over

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Obama's twenty fifteen deal and how he felt about that deal,

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as well as grievances towards as he said he believes

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Iran interfered with both the twenty twenty and twenty four

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twenty twenty four elections, So his personal interests weren't being

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He tried to satisfy them, didn't. At this point has

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decided this war is undermining those interests as well as

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national interests, and it's time to focus back on the US.

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But we could return to the battlefield any time, depending

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on any day the president wakes up and whether he

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decides war meets his interests better than dealing with his

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domestic situation.

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Well, you said something earlier, and I hope the audience

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caught that, because this is significant, because I think this

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was the big surprise here, and that was that the

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strait of horror moves.

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You know, Yes, yeah, it's well, there's nothing if the

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straight of hor Hormuz, the nuclear front by the way,

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just going. I would just say to you, I have

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no I'm a non partisan. This is through the objective

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lens of a negotiator. I would say, despite concerns about

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the twenty fifteen Iraan nuclear deal, the US would be

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hard pressed. It would be a stunning feet of negotiation,

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given how the dynamics have changed since then, for Trump

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to reach a deal that's even close to what Obama

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reached over nuclear arms in twenty fifteen.

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But around with that negotiation still had a pathway to

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obtain a nuclear weapon, and trump Number one goal was

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to stop that, to make sure they didn't And in

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a sense he certainly Whether or not he's fully stopped

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that as yet to be seen. We don't know, but

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he's definitely delayed and put it back maybe a decade

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or two.

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I'd push back. I don't think it's a decade or two.

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They still have all the know how that they need,

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They have their enriched uranium. My last book was on

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nuclear weapons and negotiating them. I don't think Iran's that

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The Bill Martinez Show 06 23 26

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