March 17, 2025

Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, Why America's Christian Leaders Are Failing

Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, Why America's Christian Leaders Are Failing

Author, filmmaker, and cultural commentator, Dr. John G. West, has written an explosive new book, STOCKHOLM SYNDROME CHRISTIANITY: Why America's Christian Leaders Are Failing - and What We Can Do About It, which has already caused a stir in some...

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Season 2

Author, filmmaker, and cultural commentator, Dr. John G. West, has written an explosive new book, STOCKHOLM SYNDROME CHRISTIANITY: Why America's Christian Leaders Are Failing - and What We Can Do About It, which has already caused a stir in some circles. Christianity Today rejected ad placements in its newsletters for the book because they determined that it "may be politically or theologically divisive." West poses: what if American culture isn't collapsing because of crusading secularists?

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Transcript
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The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests and not

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those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

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make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,

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or products mentioned on air or on our web. No

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liability explicit or implies shall be extended to W FOURCY

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Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments

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should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for

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choosing W FOURCY Radio.

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Well, good afternoon, and welcome. I've been looking forward to

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sharing our next guest with you. In fact, we're going

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to spend about fifty exclusive minutes together with doctor John

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West to talk about his new book, Stockholm Syndrome Christianity,

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Why Christian leaders are failing, and what we can do

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about it. The question is what if American culture isn't

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collapsing because of crusading secular It is what if it's

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failing because many leading Christians identify more with secular elites

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than with their fellow believers. Believe it or not, think

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about that for just a moment. These are and those

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are the provocative questions posed by Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, which

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exposes how influential Christians, influential Christian leaders, I might say,

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are citing with their anti Christian cultural captors on everything

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from biblical authority and science to sex, race, and religious liberty.

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Going beyond critique, the book identifies root causes and more crucially,

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offers practical steps and strategies that you can use to

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help your family, church, communities stand for truth. Doctor John

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West will be joining us in just a moment. He

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is Vice president of Discovery Institute in Seattle. An award

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winning author and filmmaker, he has written or edited thirteen

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books and directed a dozen documentaries. Formerly the chair of

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the Department of Political Science and Geography at Seattle Pacific University,

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he holds a PhD in Government from Claremont Graduate University.

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Let's bring on doctor John West to the show now,

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Doctor Wes. Welcome. Good to be talking to you again, sir.

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How are you.

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I'm great. It's a sunny day in Seattle at least

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right now. It's not learning, and so that's always a

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good day in March.

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Yes, exactly, Well, it's Saint Patrick's day. It should be right.

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I'm lost, true too. That's what I'm I'm learning green.

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You probably can't see all the Yes.

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Yeah, I've got a little bit of green stripe in

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this shirt too, in honor of Saint Patrick. But anyway,

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Stockholm send him Christianity. Let's give our audience a background.

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I mean, this is in a sense it is about you,

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but the application of what you experience goes beyond it,

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and I think it is a pattern of what has

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invaded our culture. John.

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Yeah, So the basic idea is going back to the

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Stockholm syndromes. People may or may not know, but this

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was an infamous bank robbery in Stockholm, Sweden in the

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nineteen seventies where after the people were held hostage, the

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bank tellers and things were held hostage, by the end

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of the experience they were having grateful thoughts about the

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robbers who were holding them hostage. Yes, And so it

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basically stands in for this idea that people who have

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been abused or held captive, i'd say culturally captive, you know,

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end up identifying more with our captors than with you know,

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surrounding society. In the case of Christians, I think it's

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Christians in the media and academ in entertainment in the churches,

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the pastors who've spent their life either in graduate school

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or with fellow professionals, these elites that have this very secular,

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very antagonistic view towards Christians, and by they spent years

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doing this and that that sort of morphs into them,

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that influences them where they actually look to those as

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their peer groups. They serve of secularist elites as their

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peer groups. So then you have these Christians who are

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personally Christian, but they are actually carrying water, if you will,

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for the secularist elites because they've sort of unconsciously many

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you know ways adopted their views. And so you know,

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as Christians were called to be salt and light to

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the culture, right, But what these Christian leaders end up

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doing is basically so identifying with the secularist elites that

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they almost regard themselves as missionaries to their fellow Christians

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to get their Christians to sort of abandon their historic beliefs.

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Amazing because we've seen this happen time in history. Of course,

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when I when I was growing up, the big notice

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was with Patty Hurst, right, she was abducted and then

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next thing you see her and she's the bank robber now, right.

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Yeah, Now that's a classic American example of that. But again,

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I think, and there's lots of debates among psychologists of

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how real that is in psychology, but I think as

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a shorthand description of what I saw. I mean, the

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reason I came to this is I kept asking the

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question I would see both at my university and a

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lot of other places of people adopting being less like

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Christians and regular culture, and why was that? And it

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wasn't just because they were consciously selling out or being cowardly.

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They actually genuinely believed the stuff that they were saying.

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And well, why is that? Because they spent their life

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with these elites who were hostile to Christianity and they

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end up adopting their worldview?

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Well exactly. I mean, if you're pounded constant with one

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side of the perspective and you aren't convicted enough of

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your own anchoring and your own foundational beliefs, I mean,

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you would almost be like is if all of a sudden,

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if Israel started siding with Hamas.

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Right, Yeah, that's a really good example, because it is

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it's really strange in one sense. But I think again,

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there are lots of examples of people who are doing this,

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And again it's not just because they're trying to curry

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favor or they think they're being cowardly. It's they now

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genuinely believe the critiques of their fellow Christians, and so

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they actually identify more with the secular elite than they

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do with their fellow Christians or historic Christian teaching.

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Well, it's kind of like again, I always go to

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the Book of Genesis. You go in the beginning, and

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what happened in the garden. You know, the big question

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was of God himself? Did God really say once you

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put those foundational principles into question, willing to entertain any

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kind of doubt of these anchoring doctrine old pillars, then

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you start to you start heading down a slippery road,

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don't you.

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You do very much. So when I talk about that

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in my book and actually give case examples of people

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who've gone down that slippery slope. And you know, the

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other insight that I have, I think a lot of

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Christians we feel that, well, if we just had more

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Christians in politics, entertainment, everything would be fine. But in fact,

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the point I'm trying to make my book is we

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have lots of Christians who go into government, academia, entertainment.

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The problem is when they get there, they behave like secularists. Right,

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So it's not enough to have personally devout people. They

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actually have to have a better Christian worldview and understand

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how it applies and look less like the world. Because

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if we keep graduating and placing people in the positions

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of power who are Christians, maybe in their personal life

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they go on Sundays and maybe they you know, have

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a devout feeling towards God, but then on Mondays they

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act like their secularist colleagues. Yes, you know, you're not

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going to get anything different. In fact, what you end

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up getting are Christians who themselves are facilitating the cultural

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decline and the cultural crisis we're in. And so, you know,

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I think a lot of us conservative Christians we tend

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to blame all the atheist diagnostics and the progressives, and

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I think all that's true. But what dawned on me

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just a few years ago is just how much of

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these things that we're dealing with have been facilitated actively

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by self identified Christian Exactly.

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We're talking with doctor John West. He's the author of

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the book Stockholm Syndrome Christianity Bot. This is an enlightening book, John,

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and I really look at it as a gift to

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what you've given to all of us, including especially the

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Body of Christ, because it challenges us to question if

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we are ourselves maintaining our saltiness, and you.

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Know I do. We can talk about some specifics, but

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you know, the book is really in three big parts.

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One is is the symptoms. You know that the documenting

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that we really do have a problem. Because the others

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are the causes and the cures. So what do we

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do about it? Because the you know, it's not inevitable,

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and you know, cultures rise and fall, but if you

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end up being more faithful to I say, you know,

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the biblical tradition, that will have a positive impact on

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your culture. And so it's it's not inevitable if we

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can turn things around. And so I, you know, spend

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a lot of chapters focusing on what are the root

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causes and then what can we do about it?

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Well, John, let's talk about you, uh, in terms of

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your experience, because this is where it began. It began,

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you know, for you at the university and you started

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to see this pattern arise and and here you are,

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You're challenged. Are you going to accommodate and cross the

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line and be like them? Are you going to hold

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your principles?

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Yeah? So for twelve years I was a professor at

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Seattle Pacific University, which is a self identified even today

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as an evangelical Christian university. So you know, on the

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long lines of Wheaton or others. And I had tenure

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there as a department chair. But what was really disturbing

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is in the time I was there is you could see,

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you know, the shift that was taking place.

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What years was that, John, So.

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I was there from the late nineties to two thousand

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and six, Okay, I heard about twelve years and then

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but and actually I'll tell two stories that I actually

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sort of bookend the transformation that began even you know

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when I left. So when I was hired, I was

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actually warned by some fellow faculty members that, oh, we

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have a really conservative board of trustees and they had

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just denied tenure to a theologian who was kind of

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out there, and they were thinking that they were sort

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of warning me that I might be worried about that. Secretly,

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in my heart, I was saying, great, you actually have

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a board of trustees that is actually trying to safeguard

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the mission of.

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The institution exactly.

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But then jump ahead to one of the last things

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I did while I was there was trying to help

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a fellow faculty member who is being denied tenure by

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the faculty. And why was he Well, there were various reasons,

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but the main reason in my view was he was

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a theologically conservative Christian. And so then tragically the board

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at that time had sort of changed rubber stamp the faculty,

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the progressive faculties attempt to get rid of this person

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who was theologically conservative, and so we went from a

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board that was actually safeguarding the integrity institution to by

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the time I left, that they were actually rubber stamping

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what the worst parts of the institution were trying to

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push towards. And then what happened just two or three

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years ago my former university was in the national news,

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I say, for not for something good, for that over

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seventy percent of the faculty, more than seventy of the

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faculty at that Evangelical Christian school, voted against the university's

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statement on biblical marriage, and basically they voted no confidence

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on the board because the board wouldn't officially repeal it,

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and so and the statement, all it said was basically

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marriage designed for a man and a woman and that's

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the context in which sexual relationship be So it wasn't

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you know, it was a pretty basic stent. And how

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do you have a Christian institution when more than seven

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and ten of the faculty reject biblical marriage? Well, the

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simple answer to that is you don't no longer has one.

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And how did that? You've abandoned a biblical worldview at

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that point, John, you have?

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And but the really I think that the insight that

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I have to share with people that because people do

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see this. And when that came out, there was a

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lot of handwringing, well how did this come about? It

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doesn't come about out of nowhere. And what I saw

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when I was at the university it was actually I

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don't blame primarily the theological liberals and progressives because they

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were doing what they thought they were was right. I

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think they were wrong, but they were acting in some

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way out of their wrong convictions. But we had a

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personally theological conservative board, many from business, but some from

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the sponsoring church who were themselves personally devout theologically conservative,

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and when push came to Shaan, they were not will it.

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They didn't have the courage of their convictions. And the

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reason why you end up having seventy percent of the

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faculty against biblical marriage is that you basically have an

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a wall board of personally theologically conservative This. I want

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to just re emphasize this, This was not a plot

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done by liberals. I mean the faculty were, but the

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board that enabled it, that hired these people that wouldn't

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get rid of the people, and that hired bad people

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or theologically conservative themselves. And this began to you know,

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dawn on me that Houston, we have a problem that

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is not just the people out there. If we don't

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basically police ourselves, if we don't you know, clean our

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own house and make sure that our fellow Christians and

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Christian leaders are living up to what they say they believe,

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how can we expect the rest of the culture to

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go anywhere than what it is, you know. And so

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when you have again personally theologically conservative people not willing

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to have the backbone or the discernment to actually stand

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up for what they say they.

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Believe, Johnny, it can't help but feel that there was

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probably such a level of Bible illiteracy at that time.

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I would question how often these officials were in the

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Word of God, because I cannot suspect that somebody would

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be in the Word of God on a daily basis

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and succumb to a cultural a cultural worldview like this.

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This is this is just my supposition John Measure on it.

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I think by the time it got to the level

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it did where you had seventy percent of the factory

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vote against biblical merriage, I think there's truth to that.

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The really defining point I write about this in my

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book for that institution, though, was when a president wanted

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to break the church away. So it was sponsored by

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the Free Methodist Church, which is a theologically conservative denomination,

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and the president wanted to eliminate Free Methodist the church

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control of the board and just be self selecting. And

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you can do that if you adopt a really strong

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statement of faith. There are some ways to do that.

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But the president didn't really want to do that, so

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you just wanted to end church control of the board.

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This is classic. Many people don't know. Harvard, Princeton, Yale

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were started out as devoutly Christian institutions. By the mid

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nineteenth century, they were not anymore. And largely the first

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step was when they eliminated control of their sponsoring church

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over the board to exercise some sort of theological oversight.

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And so when I saw this as a faculty member happening,

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he was one of a handful of factory who actually

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went to the board and we raised concerns about this,

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and in fact, we later found out some of this

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was happening without the board's full knowledge or consent. And

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so when they did find out about it, what did

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they do? This was their primarily primary failure. And I

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think this set really the trajectory is when they found

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out about it, they put a temporary stop to it,

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but they did not fire the president. They had a

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lack of nerve because the president I think really had

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bamboozled them, but you know, that's my opinion. But they didn't.

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And I later talked to a board member who was

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one of the few board members who actually did want

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to do something. There were some good The board was divided,

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but the board is a majority, would not fire him,

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and so ultimately he just regrouped and eventually got his

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way and once they changed the board composition so that

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a majority of them were not chosen by the Freemountlist Church,

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which had a strong statement of faith, you ended up

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getting a divided board, and so there really was no

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longer a majority of a biblical majority on the board

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to do anything other than if you had to formally

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repeal like their statement of faith or biblical marriage, you

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need a super majority to do that. So the minority

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the work could prevent them, but they could actually do

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anything with regard to hiring or firing. And that made

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I mean, that made it inevitable what happened. But the

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boy that decided it, they were parachurch leaders. I think

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they were in the word, but they and they were

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informed because there were some of us faculty members who

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brought them and said what are you doing and sketched

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out but they wouldn't listen, and they and this I've

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seen time and again people who personally, you know, sometimes

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they're not maybe being truthful, but I think in the

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case of the institution I was at, they were personally devout,

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not being wise or discerning, or not being able to

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have the backbone to stand up because they have a

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wrong view of Christian love. Christian love is imperative, but

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it's not It's not the same as being nice to

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everyone and never giving offense. That's not Christian love. That's

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fake love. If you see someone who's about to destroy themselves,

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it's not loving to say, oh, yeah, I'll actually give

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you something to help you. I'll give you a dose

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of fent and al. You know that that gets you

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off of that's not Christian love.

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Yes, yeah, we'll change your will change your body parts

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for you as well. We're talking with doctor John West,

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the author of the book Stockholm Syndrome Christianity. John, what

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you bring up here? And I'm glad you talked about,

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you know, the selection of the staff, because this seems

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to be a continuing saga in academia that suddenly, uh,

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conservative people of faith find themselves inundated with very liberal

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academics that overwhelm their institutions. This is what happens. How

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does that come about?

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So, and it's not just academia. I've been an elder

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and two congregations and we experience some of these pressures,

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you know, in our churches when the hiring staff people.

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And I think it's because two board members understand the

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principle from politics. I'm a former political science professor, so

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I get you some of things. The politics, which is

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personnel is policy, yes, exactly, So you get if you

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don't have the right people, it doesn't matter what standards

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you have because they're not going to follow it. And

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so I think too few board members or or elder

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boards at churches actually pay attention to that. And so

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how does this happen. Well, in academia, it happens that

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faculty usually tell the board, well, you're not experts, we're

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the experts, so just trust us. Your goal is to

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raise money for us, and basically the rubber stamp what

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we want. And unfortunately too many board members buy into that.

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And I say, yeah, board members aren't experts and everything,

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But I say, the number one goal of a board member,

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either of an academic institution or a K through twelve

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school or a.

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Church is how about a how about a government or.

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A government is mission fit? Is understanding and defending making

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sure you're actually doing what fits your mission exactly. And

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so when I, like I said, when I came to

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actually say out of PA Civic, the board was very involved.

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The reason why it could deny tenure to someone is

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that they wanted to make those board members wanted to

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make sure that anyone they gave tenure to actually was

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a biblical Christian. Now, faculty hated that because they thought

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that was micromanaging, But I'm saying, you've got to get

358
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the right personnel. And similarly, when I was an elder

359
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of a couple of different churches, you know you have

360
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ministry positions, and if you ask for someone's faith story,

361
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they're going to give you it. But you've got to

362
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ask specific questions. I mean, if your church stands up

363
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like that Jesus is the way to salvation, there are

364
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any others, or that marriage is just between a man

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and a woman, or that you believe the Bible is

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actually absolutely true, You've got to ask those specific questions.

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And what I would see often when bad people were

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about to be hired, it was primarily because the people

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didn't ask pointed questions. For the most part, I mean,

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people end up telling the truth. There are some exceptions,

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and you can go out on social media and find

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out what they really believe. But the thing is, the

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people who are actually trying to hire weren't even asking

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the questions I think in some cases because they were

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afraid of the answers.

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Yes.

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But so if you're a board member or an elder

378
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or deacon, make sure that for church staff or school

379
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staff that the things that are non negotiable to you.

380
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And I think biblical truth should be non negotiable. I

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think biblical sexuality should be non negotiable. You ask specific

382
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questions and get people on the record. Often in writing,

383
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another tactic is say, if someone's trying to shoehorn someone

384
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else in, they may say, well, just trust me, I'll

385
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interview them and I'll report back right. Well, I actually

386
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give an example of this in my book where I

387
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was on the elderboard and that was suggested, and we said, no,

388
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we really want their written answers to these specific questions.

389
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We don't just want, we want And you know what

390
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happened when we asked for that. The person withdrew yes

391
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because they didn't want to answer that. And well, that

392
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was good. But I'll think if we had gone the

393
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way that someone had suggested, well, just let me talk

394
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to them and that's more conversational, they likely wouldn't have

395
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they would have heard what they wanted to hear them.

396
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So having these lists of very specific questions and even

397
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getting them in writing yes is even is one tool

398
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that a board member should put in their little toolkit.

399
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Right well, John, this is the reason why nine out

400
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of ten people are not very happy at the jobs

401
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:38.039
they're doing. They're round pegs and square holes because there's

402
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a failure first of all for them to know themselves

403
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and who they are, and then the person that hires them.

404
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As you say, they get in the situation and they

405
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want to hear what they want to hear because they

406
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:52.319
just look at it as a requirement. You know, I've

407
00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:54.519
got a I've got an opening here, and I've got

408
00:22:54.559 --> 00:22:57.799
to get it filled as opposed to having the right

409
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person there. Because as we talked about earlier, I mean,

410
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to me, that's Christian love. Christian love is accommodating and

411
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making sure people are the right fit, that they can

412
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exercise the giftings and talents that God's blessed them with.

413
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Don't force them into something that you know they're going

414
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to hate and be miserable and make everybody else miserable

415
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around them.

416
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You know. And it's also what some of the board

417
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members don't think about. And I think this is the

418
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love is also who are you trying to serve. If

419
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you're a church, you're trying to serve your congregation to

420
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the glory of God. If you're a school, you're trying

421
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to mentor these students. It is not loving to the

422
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students or to your congregation members of hiring someone who

423
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is working athwart your mission. Yes, yeah, So what happened

424
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at Pacific in the years after I left. Things became

425
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so bad so they authorized a campus group with people

426
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who don't have biblical sexuality, I'll just put it that way,

427
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:02.039
as an official campus group, and the atmosphere changed so

428
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that by the last few years there was actually a

429
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group of conservatives dudes who petitioned the board because it

430
00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:12.599
was now becoming so hostile that if they were trying

431
00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:15.519
to articulate a defense of biblical sexuality when it comes

432
00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:19.839
to LGBTQ or something else, they were being intimidated.

433
00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:20.960
Yes, And my.

434
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:24.920
Question for the board who basically authorized that they thought

435
00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:27.880
they were being loving to people who are rejecting biblical truth.

436
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:30.599
But what they don't realize but bye by, they weren't

437
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.759
really being loving to those people. But even if they

438
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thought they were, they weren't thinking about the students who

439
00:24:37.480 --> 00:24:39.759
were trying to uphold biblical truth, who are now being

440
00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:43.839
intimidated and bullied, and this other view takes over the campus.

441
00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:47.279
And so this again many of the people who think

442
00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:50.960
they're being loving are actually being cruel. They're being cruel

443
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to the people who are on the way of error

444
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that they're not rescuing that, but they're being cruel for

445
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the victims of those people. Once it takes over, the

446
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institution becomes utterly intolerant towards the faithful few.

447
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:07.720
Yeah, what's the difference with these poisoning IVY universities right now? John?

448
00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:10.680
I mean, basically what you're saying, it's the same thing

449
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:14.279
that's happening at Columbia and Harvard and these other institutions

450
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:16.480
when it comes to Israel.

451
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:20.160
No, I mean actually unfortunately, so what you have is

452
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Christians in the late nineteenth century started a whole bunch

453
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of new universities because they had lost the first generation,

454
00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:31.039
you know, Yale, Prisonton, Harvard. What we're facing now not

455
00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:33.160
with all of them, there are still some solvents, but

456
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:37.519
with many of them, they're going the same path, right yea,

457
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:41.400
and some have gone too far that actually probably can't

458
00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:43.720
be saved. Others can be said. And one of the

459
00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:46.279
reason I wrote my book is that you know, depending

460
00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:48.920
on how far you're sitting down, you can say. I mean,

461
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I would actually say, if someone's listening to who knows

462
00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:53.240
a board member of one of these of an institution,

463
00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:56.240
or they themselves are a board member. If you have five,

464
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you know, three to five years of sustained good governance,

465
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:02.759
you can hire good new people, you can get rid

466
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:05.920
of bad people. You can actually change the trajectory of

467
00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:09.279
your institution. It will take discernment and it will also

468
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:14.480
take some courage, but you can do it, yes, and

469
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.200
now's the time to do it. You know. We faced

470
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:19.720
this also in the nineteen seventies, and a lot of

471
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:23.079
Christians rose to the challenge. At that time, there was

472
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:27.640
widespread attacks on biblical authority, even among evangelical Christians. Out

473
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:30.039
of that, you had people like Francis Schaeffer and many

474
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:33.680
others who really stood up to call evangelicals back to

475
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:37.559
their you know, their their foundations. And you had I

476
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:41.799
write about one story about the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod

477
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:45.000
where they showed courage because they had they had a

478
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.599
seminary where basically the faculty we're going over to reject

479
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:52.079
the Bible and reject biblical authority. And they stood firm,

480
00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:56.279
which meant that basically ninety percent of the faculty walked

481
00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:59.720
with the students. And everyone thought, oh, you're destroying your seminary,

482
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:03.559
your drawing your denomination. But by standing firm, the Lutheran

483
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:08.039
Church Missouri Senate is still now the largest single conservative

484
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:11.160
Lutheran denomination United States, with one point eight million members.

485
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:14.960
And so they were blessed by God by standing firm.

486
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:17.960
But so we had a lot of Christians who showed

487
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:20.640
courage in the dark days of the nineteen seventies. What

488
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.599
we're going, in my view through another period like that,

489
00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:25.720
and people need to step up. And the good news

490
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:28.599
is God will honor your faithfulness. But you first have

491
00:27:28.640 --> 00:27:30.640
to recognize as a problem and then you have to

492
00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:32.079
be willing to do something well.

493
00:27:32.119 --> 00:27:36.200
And it requires leadership, yes, really, you know. And that's

494
00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:39.640
what I see is lacking on so many fronts, whether

495
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:45.519
we're talking culturally, politically, in institutions that we need to

496
00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:48.160
count on. And I agree with you. We're talking with

497
00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:51.680
doctor John West, the author of the book Stockholm Syndrome Christianity.

498
00:27:52.599 --> 00:27:55.880
Well tell you this parallels so much of our society

499
00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:01.960
today and will cause you to rethink some of these

500
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:06.119
principles and how maybe we've just allowed because we feel

501
00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:07.960
like we want to accommodate, you know, we want to

502
00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:12.720
be liked for whatever reason. And I think it's inherent.

503
00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:14.519
I think as human beings, you know, we want to

504
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:17.640
be liked. We don't want to be called a racist

505
00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:21.480
and that sort of thing. Because I often find myself

506
00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:23.799
telling people when they accuse me of things like that,

507
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:25.319
So I go, hey, I got to tell you that's

508
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:28.319
not my heart, you know, and that has helped me.

509
00:28:28.319 --> 00:28:30.799
And I don't know, maybe that's just something that God

510
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.400
has put into me, the Holy Spirit has given to

511
00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:36.759
me as kind of a shield John where And it's

512
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:39.039
interesting because when I say that to people, it causes

513
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:42.319
them to step back for just a moment and kind

514
00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:45.160
of lower the temperature to say okay, and then we

515
00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:47.119
can decide whether or not we want to, you know,

516
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:50.640
continue on with the discourse or maybe just say, hey,

517
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:52.720
look it, I wish you well on your journey.

518
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:55.880
Yeah that's true. And you know, on the race issue,

519
00:28:55.960 --> 00:29:00.240
the tragedy is the Bible is the biggest bull work

520
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:04.440
for human dignity and human equality, genuine human dignity and

521
00:29:04.519 --> 00:29:08.039
human equality in the history of humankind, it's history of mankind.

522
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:10.920
It's just the And so for many of the churches,

523
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:12.920
and I have a chapter on this book that were

524
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:15.480
you know, adopting, whether it be whether you call it

525
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:19.440
critical race theory or or not, really demeaning views that

526
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:24.119
are demeaning people based on race and going against biblical equality.

527
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:27.119
That was tragic on multiple counts, but it was It

528
00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:30.880
was tragic because in the name of attacking racism, they

529
00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.920
actually were advocating racism. But the biggest tragedy is the

530
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:38.400
Bible is like I said, when it comes to slavery,

531
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:42.640
civil rights, the unborn, when it comes to human dignity

532
00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:45.359
and human equality, the Bible of all of us created

533
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:48.000
the image of God is a huge bullwarkat that we

534
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:50.200
that we should be, that we that we should have

535
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:54.519
good teaching on, rather than gravitating to these pseudo Marxists

536
00:29:54.599 --> 00:29:58.519
or other you know, things that actually are not Christian

537
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:06.640
and actually lead to divisiveness, not wholeness, not friendship, not equality.

538
00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:09.880
I mean it is really the Christian Church in the

539
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:12.319
last few years in America, I think has lost its

540
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:14.839
way you know, you know, many people out of the

541
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:19.680
best you know motives because they wanted to you know,

542
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:22.440
extol racial equality, which I think is right, but they

543
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:24.960
adopted that there were hoodwink if you will, by these

544
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:27.759
seculist notions that actually go in the opposite direction.

545
00:30:28.519 --> 00:30:31.440
Well, what happened is people failed to check the fruit. John,

546
00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:34.400
you know, what's the fruit of those institutions of black

547
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:36.920
lives matter? Well? What is it? Of course, we know

548
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:39.039
we have a better idea today than we did back

549
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:43.319
then because everything was so emotional that facts and truth

550
00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:46.039
was put to the back seat or the back of

551
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:46.519
the bus.

552
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:49.799
But you know, the really good news is another tragedy

553
00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:53.039
is there are a lot of devout evangelicals, whether they

554
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:57.119
be Hispanics or blacks, who are teaching this really well

555
00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:00.240
and who you know, argue for the importance of at

556
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:03.440
Christian schooling and are doing some innovative things in inner

557
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:06.599
cities to really raise up on people. And those were

558
00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:10.440
not the people that the white churches were listening to.

559
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:15.119
They were listening to the race mongers, and it was

560
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:20.640
just rather than their fellow biblical believers, you know, among blacks, Hispanics,

561
00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:23.480
and they were ignoring those great resources. So I actually

562
00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:26.519
tell part of that story in one of the chapters

563
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:28.599
of my book, and part of my book is actually

564
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:30.720
to point people to resources. You know, if you're in

565
00:31:30.759 --> 00:31:33.799
a church where they're trying to pummel you with some

566
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:36.279
of these views, and say, well, this is the view

567
00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:40.000
that if you have to have, my book gives you

568
00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:43.000
insight into all these other resources that you can use

569
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:48.200
to counter that and to because it's really tragic the

570
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.839
way that many Christians have bailed on historic Christian teaching,

571
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:55.160
which gives a lot of help in all these areas,

572
00:31:55.640 --> 00:31:58.799
and are gravitating towards these sexualist views that actually drive

573
00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:01.960
people on the ground and it to terrible outcomes.

574
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:04.319
Well, John, I think it's interesting right now where the

575
00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:08.680
culture is is, I believe, maybe even unbeknownst to itself,

576
00:32:09.079 --> 00:32:12.000
it is starving for the truth. It is a kneemic

577
00:32:12.440 --> 00:32:15.160
when it comes to the truth. And now that the

578
00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:18.400
truth is starting to come out, and I think one

579
00:32:18.440 --> 00:32:21.799
of the key crossroads that we hit here, and I

580
00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:24.839
give credit to Elon Musk, when Elon Musk came in

581
00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:28.920
and bought Twitter, yep and exposed everything that was going on.

582
00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:34.319
It was interesting how the dominoes started to fall. And

583
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:38.920
then of course, you know Trump's second campaign, actually his

584
00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:43.559
third campaign, and when he got re elected, it was

585
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:45.319
it was interesting. I mean, you know, the fact that

586
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:50.160
he survived an assassination somehow that gave him some credit,

587
00:32:50.319 --> 00:32:54.079
you know, credibility, and and he could address some common

588
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:56.480
sense things. I think some of the things he was addressing,

589
00:32:56.599 --> 00:33:00.039
you know, on immigration and other issues were there, but

590
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:04.319
it was just something about almost being assassinated that allowed

591
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:09.039
his voice to cross over these democratic not necessarily democratic,

592
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:12.960
but demographic lines that heretofore were impossible for him to

593
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:14.680
travail right or traverse.

594
00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:16.440
I should say, yeah, I think there's a lot of

595
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:19.039
insight there. I would say, you know, another example that

596
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:23.119
shows what the thirst for truth that you're talking about is.

597
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:26.599
For the last five to seven years, we were inundated

598
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:30.400
and the idea of that we need to give kids

599
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:33.680
gender affirming care, which the fact was a euphemism for

600
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:36.759
child mutilation exactly. I mean, let's just be clear. It

601
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:40.400
was not gender affirming care. It was sex destructive care,

602
00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:42.000
and it was child mutilation.

603
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:43.680
How is that loved John?

604
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:46.720
Exactly? Yet this is an example where many of the

605
00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:52.119
so called leaders of American evangelicalism were doing their best

606
00:33:52.160 --> 00:33:56.920
to either avoid that issue or to even cow taw

607
00:33:57.079 --> 00:34:00.880
to it. Yes, but there were a faithful few who

608
00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:04.599
got really persecuted, who really pushed the issue. And then

609
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:07.440
we've now seen with some of the other changes in politics,

610
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:10.920
how just in like a six month period, how the

611
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.719
public perception of that has dramatically changed because and how

612
00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:18.679
many most people now recognize that, at least with gards

613
00:34:18.679 --> 00:34:23.280
to kids, this is abuse and they're overwhelmingly opposed to it.

614
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:26.719
But imagine for the number of years where we had

615
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:30.519
Christian leaders who were not willing to speak out on

616
00:34:30.559 --> 00:34:33.920
that clearly and just a faithful few remnant. But the

617
00:34:33.960 --> 00:34:36.079
fact that now it just took a few and then

618
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:38.800
with the change on Twitter and so you can actually

619
00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:42.039
have a live debate, yes, when you could actually do that,

620
00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:46.480
people now have you know, they understand that overwhelmingly, and

621
00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:50.039
so I think there is a thirst for truth and

622
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:54.360
that that makes it all the more important that Christians

623
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:57.320
by salts in light right now in this moment, because

624
00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:59.920
if you look at Europe right now, there isn't free

625
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:03.559
of speech for Christians, and so we have this window you.

626
00:35:03.559 --> 00:35:06.079
Get jailed for speech. I mean we John, you know

627
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:10.679
this conversation we're having right now four years ago and

628
00:35:10.719 --> 00:35:14.079
thereafter for a couple of years, i'd be I'd be

629
00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:15.719
in social media jail for it.

630
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:19.960
Well. And in England, if you're praying silently outside of

631
00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:24.039
an abortion clinic, you can literally go to jail silently.

632
00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:27.360
And so people need to you know those the last

633
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:30.480
few years there was tremendous social media repression and there's

634
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:33.000
i'd say persecution the United States. I write about that

635
00:35:33.360 --> 00:35:37.199
my book too. But right now I think we have

636
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:40.800
a renewed window. And so the question is that window

637
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:43.599
isn't going to stay open forever unless we use it.

638
00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:47.000
And so I'd say the next two or three years

639
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:51.000
is absolutely critical to use the freedom we have or

640
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:54.599
else we will end up like Europe or worse well

641
00:35:54.679 --> 00:35:56.599
Canada I mean is also.

642
00:35:56.920 --> 00:35:59.559
Yeah, are supposed to fifty first state of the Union.

643
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:02.639
But the deal is, as you say, John, that's so

644
00:36:02.679 --> 00:36:05.440
critical and this is a call to the church. The

645
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:08.119
opportunity is now, this isn't a point of time, I

646
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:11.719
believe by God. And you've got people, especially young people

647
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:15.440
that are starving for the truth. Are you going to

648
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:19.119
ignite the lamp of truth in front of your churches

649
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:22.840
to let people know that God lives here and the

650
00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:25.320
truth is here. Because the fact of the matter is

651
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:28.559
truth does exist. It's not relative. We've been told for decades,

652
00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:31.960
Oh it's relative. Your truth is your truth, my truth. Beloney,

653
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:35.519
There's only one truth and it comes from God. Anything

654
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:40.559
apart from God is not the truth. And the churches

655
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:45.840
have to doctrinally and really believe that that is so,

656
00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:49.239
because I believe that is the answer to some of

657
00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:52.320
the cultural ills that we're dealing with right now. Doctor West.

658
00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:54.800
I think that's true, and I might be helpful just

659
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:57.599
you know, really quickly to mesage are very specifics because

660
00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:01.519
I'm not I am interested in politics, but this goes

661
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:05.760
beyond politics, and it's culture and it's also theology. So

662
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:07.920
when I talk about stockhom syndrome Christianity, what am I

663
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:11.880
talking about. Well, there's a megachurch pastor Andy Stanley, who

664
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:15.079
argues that the Old Testament is the obsolete Testament and

665
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:17.800
we should literally put it to the back of our bibles.

666
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:22.360
There's another leading Christian apologist, Mike Lacona, who's done some

667
00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:25.480
good work on defending the resurrection, but he now argues

668
00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:29.440
that the Gospels are like Hollywood stories that were inspired

669
00:37:29.480 --> 00:37:33.360
by true events, but that the facts, the situations, even

670
00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:35.880
the words of Jesus were changed. So it's like a

671
00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:39.840
Hollywood movie that's not accurate. So we're talking about biblical

672
00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:43.400
authority one oh one is being sacrificed and not being

673
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:48.320
stood up for. In the area of science and medicine,

674
00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:51.679
the most powerful Christian scientists in America for over a

675
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:55.440
decade was Francis Collins, self identified evangelical Christian. And what

676
00:37:55.480 --> 00:37:59.199
did he do. I don't question his personal faith. I

677
00:37:59.239 --> 00:38:02.840
think he's personally it's about but he oversaw the development

678
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:08.920
of a tissue hub harvesting aborted baby body parts exactly

679
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:11.880
for medical research millions of your tax dollars. And this

680
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:15.320
was not directed by a materialist, by you know, an

681
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:18.280
atheist or an agnostic. It was directed by it was

682
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:23.800
overseen by a hard caring, you know, evangelical Christian. And

683
00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:26.960
worse than that, we talked about the gender stuff. The

684
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:31.039
n i EH spent millions more bank rolling some of

685
00:38:31.079 --> 00:38:35.280
the worst doctors and hospitals that were doing uh, gender

686
00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:39.559
destructive research of puberty blockers on kids and cutting off

687
00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:43.360
breasts of young women. And that was also on Francis

688
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:47.039
Collins's watch. In fact, he called himself an ally and

689
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:49.119
advocate his term of the l g B t q

690
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:54.039
I a movement, and so and so that that, but

691
00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:56.000
that wasn't done by an atheist. That was done by

692
00:38:56.039 --> 00:38:59.360
a Christian. And then when we get to you know, sexuality,

693
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:04.480
you know, people don't realize the key vote inventing a

694
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:07.119
right of gay marriage, inventing a right that's not in

695
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:11.840
the constitution, did not come from a atheist, didn't even

696
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:14.400
come from a Democrat. It was by Anthony Kennedy, who

697
00:39:14.440 --> 00:39:16.519
was known as a goodie goody in his personal life,

698
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:20.599
faithful mass goer, faithful Catholic in its personal life. I

699
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:23.679
guess he was the one who imposed gay marriage on

700
00:39:23.760 --> 00:39:26.440
the country. And so and in my own home state,

701
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:29.360
we had an attorney general who drove out of business.

702
00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:33.039
A Christian grandma. Why, she was a florist and she'd

703
00:39:33.079 --> 00:39:36.000
serve everyone, but she drew the line that she didn't

704
00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:38.880
want to do special arrangements for gay weddings. They could

705
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:42.079
buy things from her, including and do their own arrangements,

706
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:44.519
but she didn't want to service well. The attorney general

707
00:39:44.599 --> 00:39:47.320
who drove her to where she doesn't exist in it

708
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:50.320
she had to get out of business. Bob Ferguson, who

709
00:39:50.360 --> 00:39:53.679
unfortunately is now our governor, was when he ran he

710
00:39:53.800 --> 00:39:56.800
touted that he was this member of this local Catholic church,

711
00:39:56.840 --> 00:39:58.760
and he used that in his elections, and he actually

712
00:39:58.840 --> 00:40:02.199
even when he was executing this Christian grandma, he actually

713
00:40:02.199 --> 00:40:05.519
published an article about how his faith impelled him to

714
00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:09.079
do what he was doing. So my point is that that,

715
00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:11.480
you know, I'm an evangelical Christian, so a lot of

716
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:14.119
the examples are from that in my book. But I

717
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:17.239
think even if people are Catholic, this is a similar

718
00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:21.119
issue during COVID, And you know, there were different views

719
00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:23.079
on things that COVID, but I think one thing all

720
00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:25.079
Christians should have been able to agree on is that

721
00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:29.920
if you have lockdown orders or restrictions on churches, they

722
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:34.079
shouldn't be any worse than those on private businesses. Now,

723
00:40:34.119 --> 00:40:37.079
I think the lockdowns were misconstrued and wrong. But but

724
00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:39.719
I'm but you know, for the sake of argument, Okay,

725
00:40:39.800 --> 00:40:43.280
if they're okay, But you had Nevada, a devout, devout

726
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:47.480
Catholic governor who opened up the casinos and at the

727
00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:53.719
same time put draconian restrictions on the churches exactly. And

728
00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:58.440
we had a conservative Catholic, John Roberts who okayed that

729
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.360
at the Supreme Court a Bush appoint right. So I

730
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:04.000
mean these are again we can blame all we want,

731
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:08.119
liberal Democrats, atheists, whatever, but if you actually look at

732
00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:11.559
the people facilitating all these bad things, they're self identified

733
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:15.119
Christians and in many cases personally devout. And so our

734
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:18.800
churches need to be more consistent about and our church

735
00:41:18.840 --> 00:41:24.360
based schools of mentoring and discipling people getting that personal

736
00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:27.119
you know, acceptance of Christ is great, but then what

737
00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:28.599
do you do with that? You have to live in

738
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:30.280
a chord with that, and what does that mean?

739
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:34.320
Yes, exactly. Doctor John West is with us his book

740
00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:39.639
Stockholm Syndrome Christianity, and the last time we talked on

741
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:42.599
along that list. I mean, let's go back to World

742
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:46.440
War two and what happened there in Germany. I mean

743
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:49.599
it was pastors, it was Catholic priests. You know, they

744
00:41:49.639 --> 00:41:53.639
are you know, next thing, you know, they're abandoning the

745
00:41:53.679 --> 00:41:57.119
Bible from mine kanp. I mean if you think, but

746
00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:00.000
you know, Jesus warned us and said, look at less

747
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:04.199
even the elect would be be persuaded. I mean, these

748
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:07.519
are warnings that are there in His words and in

749
00:42:07.559 --> 00:42:10.519
the word of God. And uh, this is why we

750
00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:13.400
must hold on to biblical truth.

751
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:15.599
That's exactly right. And I want to say, you say,

752
00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:18.280
I'm glad you brought up history, because this has happened

753
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:20.840
time and again. But I also want to say there

754
00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:24.039
are always faithful remnants. And of course in Germany there

755
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:28.079
was Dietrich Bonhoeffer and others. And I say today, if

756
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:31.719
someone's watching this, who is feeling depressed by all this,

757
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:34.119
and and you're faithful and trying to do the right thing,

758
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:36.800
God will honor that. In fact, the last chapter of

759
00:42:36.840 --> 00:42:40.280
my book focus on something I called God's surprises in

760
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:44.119
history and time and again, there have been places where

761
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:46.159
Christians thought, well, the Church is just going to go

762
00:42:46.199 --> 00:42:50.320
out of existence. It was actually in China after World

763
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:52.960
War two when Maw took over. You know, if you

764
00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:55.559
were likely there, you would have thought that Christianity would

765
00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:58.119
go to funk there. Well, there are hundreds of millions

766
00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:01.079
of Christians in China. Now they're gone. Is still awful,

767
00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:03.000
but you know there are hundreds of millions, and so

768
00:43:03.480 --> 00:43:08.920
God does amazing things. So we're not ourselves ultimately called

769
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:11.440
it's not on us whether things are going to be

770
00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:14.159
successful or not. We're called to be faithful, not success. Factly,

771
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:16.079
God will take care of the success, and I think

772
00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:19.880
God honors people's faithfulness, but he'll choose how to do that.

773
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:24.320
So if you are feeling overwhelmed here, my main message

774
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:28.679
is whatever your realm of influences. It might be just

775
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:30.599
with your kids, it might be with your grandkids. It

776
00:43:30.679 --> 00:43:32.559
might be in your church if you're a pastor or

777
00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:35.199
a small group leader. It might be in your Christian school,

778
00:43:35.239 --> 00:43:37.880
if you're a board member or a teacher or a

779
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:42.039
board member of a you know, another ministry. But in

780
00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:46.639
that area where you're called be faithful, and my book

781
00:43:46.679 --> 00:43:48.519
does give some examples of how you can do that.

782
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:50.400
You don't have to solve the world's problem. But the

783
00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:52.400
weight of the universe is not on your shoulders, like

784
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:54.880
at let's carry the weight of the university. Exactly, It's

785
00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:57.719
on God's shoulders. But we are called to be faithful.

786
00:43:58.519 --> 00:44:01.360
After all, this is Jesus Church. He created it right,

787
00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:04.599
and the thing is what we It's hard for us,

788
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:09.280
particularly here in the United States, to really understand Christian persecution. Yes,

789
00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:12.679
there's bakers that are attacked there's grandmothers that are attacked

790
00:44:13.559 --> 00:44:17.840
and law fair and things like that, and it's really

791
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:22.679
minimal compared to other countries where you know, Christianity is

792
00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:28.480
the most persecuted religion on the planet. And so in fact,

793
00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:31.159
I was reminded here recently because I saw this movie

794
00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:35.519
twenty one, which was a recall of what happened in

795
00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:42.119
February of twenty fifteen with the Coptic Christians that were

796
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:47.400
beheaded there by isis you know, and you I mean,

797
00:44:47.400 --> 00:44:50.840
here they were and they knew what was going to

798
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:52.800
happen to them. In fact, there was one There was

799
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:55.360
originally only twenty and the way it became twenty one

800
00:44:55.480 --> 00:44:59.159
is there was an Egyptian Coptic and they let him,

801
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:01.079
they were letting him go, and he says, no, I

802
00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:04.000
stand with my brothers. And he stood with his brothers

803
00:45:04.039 --> 00:45:06.760
to the you know, to the death and had his

804
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:10.079
head removed like the rest of them. And you know,

805
00:45:10.159 --> 00:45:13.360
and you watch this and it really convicts you to think, Okay,

806
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:17.960
we talk about faithfulness, but I mean, you know, faithfulness

807
00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:21.320
here in the West is like having a hangnail, you know,

808
00:45:21.440 --> 00:45:23.559
compared to having your head taken off.

809
00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:27.000
You know, I completely agree with us. And I think

810
00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:28.559
one of the big blond spots of a lot of

811
00:45:28.599 --> 00:45:32.159
American Christians is they don't know the levels of horrific

812
00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:34.880
persecution going on around the world. And I think there

813
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:38.280
are great groups Open Doors, Voice Martyrs, other you know,

814
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:40.800
groups that actually help with that out and that should

815
00:45:40.840 --> 00:45:43.840
be a priority for churches. What I will say, though,

816
00:45:43.960 --> 00:45:46.440
I do think that if we don't want things to

817
00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:50.320
get worse in our culture, we do. The other problem

818
00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:53.079
I have sometimes people say, well, because it's so bad,

819
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:55.639
you weren't saying this. But I deal with this in

820
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:57.599
the book that one person who told me, well, you

821
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:01.480
know it's that's a blessing to those people is not elsewhere,

822
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:04.159
and so they're not They use it as an excuse

823
00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:07.679
not to defend their brothers or sisters who are going

824
00:46:07.719 --> 00:46:10.119
through that. And I actually have a very poignant quote

825
00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:14.079
from a Nigerian Christian and Nigerians for any people who

826
00:46:14.079 --> 00:46:17.639
know there are also going through horrific persecution in Northern Nigeria,

827
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:19.599
and he said that, you know, one of the things

828
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:22.679
in Nigeria that I wish that the Christians in the

829
00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:25.280
West need to pay attention to is that we we

830
00:46:25.400 --> 00:46:28.800
sew downplane it, especially if it's happening to another Christian group,

831
00:46:28.840 --> 00:46:32.039
we wouldn't defend them. And and that's how we got

832
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:35.480
in this situation. And they were basically warning Christians in

833
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:38.400
the West not to pooh pooh this, especially if it

834
00:46:38.440 --> 00:46:41.280
happened to someone, you know, a Christian maybe outside their tradition,

835
00:46:42.079 --> 00:46:44.000
because they said, well, that's not us, they haven't come

836
00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:47.440
for us yet. And so I do think that we

837
00:46:47.559 --> 00:46:50.199
do also need to defend, even though not to the

838
00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:53.760
level of beheading or being killed, people do lose their

839
00:46:53.840 --> 00:46:57.480
jobs and other things in America. And I do think

840
00:46:57.599 --> 00:46:59.800
that what you know, Christians in their own communities need

841
00:46:59.840 --> 00:47:02.440
to be upholding the people in their own communities who

842
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:03.079
are facing them.

843
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:07.000
Yeah, without a doubt. Well, and in the book also

844
00:47:08.199 --> 00:47:11.840
and I we have a little time left here, doctor John,

845
00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:16.440
and you have some action here, action points in chapter ten,

846
00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:18.559
for example, a call to wisdom, right.

847
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:22.199
Yeah, yeah, so I did. There are a lot of

848
00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:23.840
things that you can do. We talked about some of

849
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:26.559
them that board members could do. But on the Wisdom chapter,

850
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:29.360
I go through a lot of things the way others

851
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:33.119
people try to manipulate you, like like using words in

852
00:47:33.119 --> 00:47:35.239
different ways, Like there's a movement now among some to

853
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:39.400
call redefined pro life to basically mean global warming. And

854
00:47:39.519 --> 00:47:42.880
so I try to queue people in on how language

855
00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:45.719
is being manipulated and things that you can do to

856
00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:49.800
you arm yourself beforehand, so when you encounter it you

857
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:51.559
know how to deal with. And then there's just a

858
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:53.920
lot of other practical things. There's another chapter with twenty

859
00:47:53.960 --> 00:47:56.719
one things people can do, whether you're a parent or teacher,

860
00:47:56.800 --> 00:47:59.960
and you know, one just very simple is do no harm,

861
00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:03.239
which has taken inventory. How are you using your own

862
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:06.119
you know, where do you go to church? Where are

863
00:48:06.119 --> 00:48:08.920
you giving your money, your time, talent and treasure, and

864
00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:12.000
are you making sure that you're not enabling bad things?

865
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:13.719
What are you doing with your own resources?

866
00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:18.239
Exactly? Well, doctor John West, cannot thank you enough The

867
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:23.920
Book of Course, Stockholm syndrome, Christianity, why Christian leaders are failing,

868
00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:27.119
and what we can do about it. Really the ball

869
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:31.639
is in our court, you know, as a responsible person

870
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:36.159
of faith, an intentional, committed person of faith. You know

871
00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:40.719
this is again I just think it's such a blessing, John,

872
00:48:40.840 --> 00:48:44.320
what you've given us. And I encourage all our viewers

873
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:47.199
to get their hands on your book, The Book of Course,

874
00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:48.840
available at all the usual places.

875
00:48:48.920 --> 00:48:51.880
Right, Yes, it is, and if people want more information

876
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:53.960
they can also go to the book website which is

877
00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:57.679
Stockholm Syndrome Christianity dot com. A lot of free resources

878
00:48:57.800 --> 00:48:58.800
on that website.

879
00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:01.119
Well, doctor John West, thank you so much for being

880
00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:04.519
with us. Take care, God bless Thank you. Bill say, okay,

881
00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:07.599
you got it? Well, tell you what a treat Huh.

882
00:49:07.639 --> 00:49:13.719
He's just an awesome academic and fellow citizen of the faith.

883
00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:16.440
I want to thank you for joining us. I hope

884
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:18.559
this has been a blessing to you as it has

885
00:49:18.639 --> 00:49:22.559
been to me, and you know, thank you for your time.

886
00:49:22.599 --> 00:49:25.039
As we wrap things up, I want to read this

887
00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:28.599
portion of Saint Patrick's prayer on this Saint Patty's Day,

888
00:49:28.599 --> 00:49:32.000
if it's okay with you. I love this. You know.

889
00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:35.079
One of my good friends, Geene Watson, has put this

890
00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:37.000
to music, and if you ever get a chance, check

891
00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:42.000
it out on YouTube. It is Saint Patrick's breastplate and

892
00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:44.400
she has such a great story. But you will be

893
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:48.800
greatly blessed. But the prayer goes Christ with me, Christ

894
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:52.519
before me, Christ behind me, Christ in me, Christ beneath me,

895
00:49:52.639 --> 00:49:56.440
Christ above me, Christ on my right, Christ on my left,

896
00:49:56.679 --> 00:50:00.480
Christ when I lie down, Christ, when I sit down, Christ,

897
00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:03.880
when I arise. Christ in the heart of every man

898
00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:07.000
who thinks of me, Christ in the mouth of everyone

899
00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:10.360
who speaks of me, Christ in every eye that sees me,

900
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:15.239
Christ in every ear that hears me. May God bless

901
00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:17.639
you and keep you. May make His face shine upon you,

902
00:50:17.719 --> 00:50:20.679
May be gracious unto you and give you peace thanks

903
00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:21.880
for being with us. God bless