Jackie, Public Private Secret

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Well, welcome to the Bill Martiniz Show.

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Good to have you with us,
and our next guest is Jay Randy

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Terriborrelli. He's a New York Times
best selling author of Jackie, Janet and

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Lee, a Kennedy historian that's has
documented the life of the Kennedy's. His

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brand new book, Jackie Public,
Private Secret, gives us an even deeper

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look. After hundreds of interviews that
have taken place, people were able to

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maybe be a little bit more open
to address this iconic not only a political

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figure, but as a just as
a unique and unique woman from American history.

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It's as I mentioned, he's a
New York Times bestselling author. It's

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a fresh and often startling look at
the life of the legendary former First Lady

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Jacqueline Kennedy Onnassas. Based on hundreds
of interviews with friends, family and lovers

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over a thirty year period, as
well as previously unreleased material from the JFK

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Library, This Kennedy historian paints and
unforgettable new portrait of a woman whose flaws

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and contradictions only served to make her
even more iconic. Kennedy historian author gives

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a unique and special view of this
iconic figure. And we bring him on

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now, Jay Randy Taraborelli, welcome
to show. Good to have you with

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us. How you doing, Bill, It's good to see you. Hey,

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good to see you, Randy.
In approaching Jackie. And you've known

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the Kennedy's, you know their their
whole sense. And I think the title

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of this is so perfect because there's
the public side, the private side,

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and certainly the secret side of Jackie
that is revealed like never before in this

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book. Well, you know,
the title is interesting, Bill, because

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it actually came from Jackie in a
conversation that she had with John Warnicky,

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who was the man who designed the
JFK. Grave site at Arlington. David

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made friends throughout Jackie's entire life and
out of round. The time of her

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sixtieth birthday, they were having a
conversation about a private matter and Jackie said

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to John, you know, she
called him jack She said, Jackie to

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me, I have three lives public, private, and secret. And that's

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where that's where the title came from. And it certainly is true of Jackie,

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as it is of most people in
the public eye, you know,

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as you said, a public life
that we all know about, a private

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life that perhaps her friends and family
knew about, and then a secret life

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that not many people knew about at
all. Well, did Warnicky fit more

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in that secret life area? So
yeah, she absolutely did build. And

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I think it's astonishing because Warnicky had
a three year love affair with Jackie from

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nineteen sixty four to nineteen sixty seven
that somehow, I don't know how you

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can imagine this, but somehow the
public did not know about. And I

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asked John, how were you able
to keep a three year relationship with the

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most famous woman in the world private? And he said, you know,

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you just simply didn't blab about it
to the press and and you know,

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and that's what they did, you
know, And when you think about it,

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it's amazing to kind of acknowledge that
celebrities can have a private life if

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they choose to, you know,
not go to the media and not be

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seen in public. And you know, there are ways to have there are

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ways to have a private life.
And Jackie had she figured that out earlier

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in her life. Today, I
think it might be more difficult with social

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media. You know, today people
really uh you know, can't have as

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much privacy as they might have been
able to happen in the sixties because everywhere

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they go they're photographed, and you
know, their entire lives are up on

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Instagram and TikTok and Facebook and Twitter. But back in the sixties, you

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know, you were actually able to
have a three year affair with a private

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person architect actually and not have it
become a headline news. Well also,

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you know, you have the devolution
of politics and the you know, the

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coin of the realm, which is
leaks and secrets, and uh, you

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know today those are quite you know, fully fully displayed. So it's hard,

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as you say, and today and
I don't know, necessarily it's it's

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social media as much as it is
you know, the you know, the

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journalistic class. They seem to be
more gossip columnists than journalists in my humble

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opinion, Randy, And that might
sound a little harsh, So forgive me

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no. I totally agree with you, Bill, I totally agree with you.

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You know that there Jackie is of
a time and place, and so

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many people who've read my book have
have brought this to my attention. You

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know that there was once upon a
time people were given privacy and there were

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not secretary's leaking information. You know, she didn't she there was no family

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member that she had who was going
to the press with information about her.

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You know. There there you know, there there was trust, you know,

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and and we don't necessarily have that
today. Today most public figures have

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that person in their circle who's going
to CMZ with information. And that wasn't

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necessarily the case back in in a
certain time, in a certain place.

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Well, the only person that had
those kind of files was Jay Edgar Hoover,

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right, m You're absolutely right in
Jayger Hoover. Uh. You know,

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I have had the opportunity to go
into the FBI's files on Jaygar Hoover

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and I'll tell you the honest,
honest truth Bill. And I know I

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don't I never have an opportunity to
discuss this. In fact, I don't

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think I've ever discussed this on air
anywhere. But man, those files are

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so full of misinformation, you know, like back back then and perhaps even

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today. I don't, I don't
want to know. I don't want to

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speak about today, but perhaps even
today, any person can go to the

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FBI with information and that information becomes
a part of the FBI's files, whether

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it's true or not. And I
had, I had, I decided a

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long time ago to ignore the FBI's
files on all Kennedys across the board because

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they cannot be verified. It's just
information that has been given to the FBI.

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Then the FBI then includes in its
files, and then that information is

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deemed to be relevant and you know
it and acknowledged as true, when actually

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it's just information that's just going out
there with anybody like like, nobody like

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me going back to verify its accuracy. You know, I can't use every

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story that that comes my way in
my books, you know, I just

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can't. You know, you have
to go back and you've got a double

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source, the triple source that you
have to figure out if it's accurated,

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you have to figure out if the
person hasn't acts to grind. You have

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to figure out, you know,
what the motivation is of the source.

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But often the FBI just includes it
in its files and people will look it

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up and they see it there and
they think it's true, and it's really

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not well And the thing that makes
it so dangerous rounded to your point,

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is somebody might pick up on it
and they make a headline out of it,

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and it hasn't been properly vetted.
But you know, this again,

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is what we've been reduced to is
whatever we'll get a click, whatever we'll

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get a headline. This is where
social media comes into play, you know,

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to your point, and this is
dangerous and this is disinformation. But

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right now, you know, we've
got I think we need to have some

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discipline and understanding how we categorize our
information, whether it is truly disinformation or

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if it's just some thirty something's idea
of disinformation and because it doesn't rhyme with

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their emotional reason. I totally agree
with you, Bill, I think a

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lot of it has to do with
educating the public as well, you know.

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And I think that the fact that
this is you know, one of

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the rare times that I've ever discussed
it is probably you know, uh,

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not not an advantage. I think
that guys like me who are reporters who

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actually have access to the FBI files
need to perhaps come forward to educate the

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public that just because something is in
the FBI file, you know, you

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figure the FBI file would you know, carry some kind of weight just by

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virtue of the name FBI file,
right, and you have to people like

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me, reporters like me perhaps need
to come forward and say, look,

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you know, here's what the FBI
files are. It's not good and it's

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not bad, it's just what it
is. What it is is information that

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has come to the FBI from all
sorts of sources, and the FBI then

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includes it in their filings and then
it's there for the world to see.

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Whether or not it's been uh it's
been you know, proven to be true,

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or whether it's been vetted in any
way is up for grabs, you

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know. And that's you know,
that's not that's not a hit on the

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FBI. It's been that way since
since the beginning of the FBI. It's

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just the way you have to manage
the information. Randy, we're talking with

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Jay Randy terror BURRELLI uh New York
Times bestselling author his new book Jackie Public

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Private Secret. Uh Randy as a
Kennedy historian. Let's let's go back and

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rewind for just a moment and consider
Jackie as a child. Bring us up

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today. Tell us about her upbringing. Well, she was. She was

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born and raised in New York City. Uh. You know, her mom,

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Janet Aukin Class, was a formidable
presence in her life. She was

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she was tough, she was strict, she was you know, I wrote

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an entire book about her Jackie,
Janet and Lee and and and I I'm

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a big fan of Janet Aukin Class's
but but you know, she did have

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her own way of raising her two
daughters, Jackie and Jackie's sister Lee.

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I'm lucky enough to have as my
one of my primary sources Janet's only son

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of Jamie Aukincloss, who is Jackie's
half brother, and who was able to

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give me a real sense of how
Jackie was raised in New York and the

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trouble and the problems that her mother
Janet had with Jackie's father, jack Bouvier,

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who was unfaithful to her for many
years until they finally divorced. And

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then Janet remarried a gentleman named Hugh
Auchincloss, And this is Jamie's father,

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who was very wealthy. And when
Jackie was thirteen years old, she moved

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into this big estate in Newport,
which was Hugh's home, Hammer Smith Farms,

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and Jackie and Hugh aukan Klass,
her stepfather, were very close and

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Hugh actually gave her away at both
of her wedding And in this book,

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Public Private Secret, I spent a
lot of time explaining who Hugh Aukincloss was

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because he's never been written about before, and he's a fascinating man and he

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really is very largely responsible for helping
to raise Jackie. Yeah, well it

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says a lot, you know,
when you consider the chemistry. I mean,

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he's her stepfather, but you have
this sense that they enjoyed a very

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very special relationship, didn't they.
Well, yeah, thank you for saying

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that, Bill, because it's very
true. And in fact, on the

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night that JFK was assassinated, Jackie
asked Hugh to please sleep in JFK's bed

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in the White House, and a
lot of people were like, well,

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that is the strangest request ever,
you know, I mean and that,

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and Hugh felt very awkward. He
had never even been in JFK's bedroom and

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so to sleep in JFK's bed the
night that he was murdered. Hugh didn't

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know what to make of that.
But then but Jamie, his son,

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explained to me that what they finally
figured out was that Jackie realized somebody was

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going to sleep in that bed because
the White House was filled with people relatives

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and diplomats and dignitaries and friends and
associates, and Jackie was afraid that some

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person was going to end up in
that bed who shouldn't have ever had the

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honor, and so she wanted to
make sure that she was able to control

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that, and so she asked Hugh
Atincloss to please sleep in that bed that

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night. Andy did. Can you
imagine Randy, the capacity for her to

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consider that, in the midst of
all that she was dealing with the grief,

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she always seemed to be ahead of
everyone else, and especially this came

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to it seemed to be manifest quite
clearly during the whole process of you know,

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the funeral and you know, an
orchestrating all the all the elements of

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JFK's uh, you know funeral.
It's amazing. But to think that even

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that she would consider, how could
she do that? I mean, I

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would think my brain would be going
in so many fifty million directions. I

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couldn't even think about eating or anything
else. Well, you know the rest

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of that story, Bill is that, you know, uh, late late

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into the evening, there was a
knock on the door and Hugh went to

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answer, and it was Jackie and
she was crying and she said that you

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know, she wasn't able to sleep
and she was having nightmares. And he

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brought her into into the bedroom and
he put her into the President's bed and

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pulled the covers up over her,
and he sat with her for the rest

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of the night. So as much
as she was trying to keep it together

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and and and you know, she
had lists, and she was organized,

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and she was trying her best to
you know, sort of facilitate this international

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event, this funeral, privately,
she she really was falling apart. You

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know, you talk about her organization, this was part of her wiring.

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I mean, she she had a
great skill set when it came to organizing,

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right, she really did, you
know, she uh and I think

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that she got that from her mom, from you know, Janet Aukin class.

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You know, that everything had to
be exactly right for the funeral,

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and she wanted to make sure you
know, that there were that nothing went

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wrong, and you know, and
that took that took a toll, you

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know, but she felt a responsibility
to the country and to the president to

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give him the kind of send off
that would be historical and would always be

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remembered, and also that would hold
the country together during this terrible you know.

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You know, that's the thing that
stuck out for me as well,

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Randy, was that her capacity to
consider the hearts of the country. You

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know, here she is. I
mean, it's almost like she she made

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a deliberate decision and choice to set
her emotions aside for the sake of the

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countries. That is so true.
And that's such a great way of putting

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it, Bill, because that is
exactly the case. But I want I

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want to also say that because she
was able to put forth you know,

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this this this image of strength,
and of course not it wasn't real image

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making and she really was strong,
and she really was great, but the

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public began to feel like she was
fine, you know, because there she

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is and she looks like she is
you know, she she's a she's a

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rock of you know, fortitude and
strength and and but you know, she

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suffered from PTSD over what happened to
JFK for for the rest of her life,

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all the way to the end of
her life. In fact, the

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last conversation that John Warnicky, the
architect that we mentioned earlier, the last

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conversation that he had with Jackie,
which was shortly before her death, he

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asked her if she had any regrets, and according to what he told me,

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she said that she had one regret, and her regret was that she

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allowed Dallas the assassination to poison her
entire life and she was never able to

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reconcile what happened to JFK that day
and the way that he died right at

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her side, And it really speaks
a lot to Jackie's, you know,

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sort of survivor instinct that she told
Warnicky that she felt that if she had

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just ten more years, she would
be able to she would be able to

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deal with what happened in Dallas,
and think of this. She had been

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trying to deal with her for thirty
years by this time, and she felt

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that if she only had ten more
years, she'd be able to do it.

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And that really says a lot about
you know, PTSD and how and

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how you know, difficult it is
to cope with this kind of trauma and

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tragedy in a person's life. Yeah, exactly well, and I can only

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imagine, Randy. I mean,
here it is at every anniversary of the

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president's assassination. I mean, how
could she avoid, you know, being

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reminded either you know, just passing
a television set by accident or whatever,

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turning on a radio, hearing,
you know, again the announcement from Walter

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Cronkite that the president was dead.
I mean things like that. How do

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you when you're dealing with PTSD and
constantly reminded of the pain that had given

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you and captured your psychology and your
mentality for all these years. It's almost

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like she couldn't get away from it, could she. Well, you're exactly

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right, you know. John Kennedy
Junior told me I interviewed him back in

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the nineteen nineties, and something he
told me, and I included in the

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book because it just affected me so
that at every anniversary of his father's death,

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there would be magazine articles and there
would be a pictures of Jackie at

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the assassination wearing the pink dress with
the blood on it. And John would

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always go to his mother and take
these magazines from her and hide them and

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tell her, you know, I
don't want you to see these things,

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you know, Like he was so
protective of her that he just did not

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want her to be reminded of this
terrible day that continued to haunt her for

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her entire life. And there are
stories in the book about the different anniversaries

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along the way, and one of
them is, you know, I forget.

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00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:41.519
I think it was the tenth anniversary, and she was at Ethel Kennedy's

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home at Hickory Hill, and Ethel
Kennedy was having a mass at the house

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00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:52.359
for JFK and also for Bobby of
course, and h and Jackie and Ethel

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00:19:52.720 --> 00:19:56.400
were trying to console each other and
they just could not believe that this terrible

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thing had happened to both of them. In the sisters in law imagine two

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sisters in law and the family who
witnessed the murder of their husbands in exactly

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00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:10.519
the same way, a shot to
the head. I mean, what are

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00:20:10.519 --> 00:20:15.839
the chances of this happening in any
family, because it's just unbelievable. Well,

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00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.960
we're talking about New York Times best
selling author Jay Randy Terri Borelli,

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00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:33.319
Jackie Public Private Secret. More from
him after this stay with us. This

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290
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four one four two one. Welcome
back, Bill Martinez. Here, we're

291
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:40.000
talking with New York Times best selling
author Jay Randy Terborrelli his new book Jackie

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00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:45.920
Public Private Secret. Randy, let's
revisit a little bit as and remember how

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Jackie, you know, became a
Kennedy and the courtship between her and John

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00:23:52.720 --> 00:24:00.240
F. Kennedy. I think what's
interesting, Bill is that it's because of

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00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:07.599
Jackie's mom, really that Jackie ended
up with JFK. What I learned while

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00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:15.119
researching this book was that JFK's interest
originally was in Jackie's sister Lee, and

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00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:19.480
Jackie was fine with that. She
didn't have an attraction to JFK and she

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00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.839
was fine with her sister being with
JFK. However, it was their mother,

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Janet, who said, you know, her quote was that it's time

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to get Jackie settled. And back
in the nineteen fifties, if a woman

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wasn't settled by the time she was
twenty three, meaning married her children,

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00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:47.799
then there was an issue. And
jack Janet just felt like it was time

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00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:51.200
for Jackie to be settled because Lee
was only nineteen, Jackie was twenty three,

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00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.599
and so Janet said to Jackie,
you need to, you know,

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00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:00.720
reintroduce yourself to JFK and see if
there's something there, and you need to

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00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:06.799
try harder. That's what she told
her, and so ultimately that's what happened,

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00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:10.039
and JFK became interested in Jackie.
But you have to wonder in this

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00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:14.640
chapter in my book is called what
if for a reason, because you have

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00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:19.119
to wonder, what if Janet had
not intervened, would it be possible that

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Lee Ratzon world would have had Jackie's
life? And I believe me, I'm

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not the first person to wonder this, because everybody in the family has been

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00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.920
wondering about this for, you know, more than fifty years. You know

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00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:36.640
that Jamie were the two girls,
though that's similar that there could have been

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that interchange, because I sense that, you know, these were two unique

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00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:47.519
women raised by a strong mom who
definitely had a plan. But I,

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00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:51.960
at least maybe I'm mistaken here,
Randy, But I kind of see them

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00:25:52.000 --> 00:25:55.160
as two unique individuals, you know, But I can I can appreciate why

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somebody said, well what if?
Yeah, right, Well, you know,

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00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:00.720
they were very they were very different, and they but they were both

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00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:06.680
very beautiful, and they were very
charismatic and and and his original interest was

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in Lee. So so that that's
just the fact that you have to wonder

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if if they had let nature take
its course, you know, would he

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have ended up with the one that
he was interested in as opposed to the

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as opposed to the other one.
You know, who knows. But I

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00:26:22.759 --> 00:26:26.720
just think there was there any indication
of JFK looking over his shoulder and saying

326
00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:33.839
shoulda coulda would have no, not
not not to my knowledge, there wasn't.

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You know, jack Once he got
to know Jackie, it was really

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00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:40.839
hard to resist her, you know. And uh, and she was you

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know, she had a style all
her own. Uh. And the two

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00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:48.480
of them fell in love and you
know, and that was the story.

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00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:53.000
But you know, there was always
a rivalry and attention between Jackie and her

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sister Lee. And I would say
that it doesn't stretch the imagine nation to

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00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:04.359
think that this situation probably only intensified. Right you married my man? How

334
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:10.640
dare you right? And then go
ahead, Bill, No, But to

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00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:15.319
your point, whenever you look at
pictures of JFK and Jackie, they looked

336
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.200
like they were just enjoying themselves.
I mean, it wasn't like I mean,

337
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:21.640
I mean these are random pictures.
It wasn't like, hey, po

338
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:26.839
pose for the camera. I mean, they genuinely looked like they were enjoying

339
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:30.359
them, especially when they were around
the kids. I think that you know

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00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:36.480
that you're right about that, you
know, they had a great love and

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00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:41.440
affection for each other. And it
was not easy for Jackie because we all

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00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:47.319
know about JFK's infidelities, right,
you know, and and she, you

343
00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:49.119
know, she had to learn to
live with that and had to figure out

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how to you know, how to
navigate that marriage despite all of that.

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And you know, the mom I
have to say, according to J.

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Jannet's son, Jamie Janet had a
lot of reservations about having campaigned so hard

347
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for JFK. Once Jackie was in
the marriage and they realized that JFK was

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not going to be faithful. You
know, the mom felt responsible for,

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you know, some of the heartbreak
that her daughter experienced in the marriage.

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This isn't to say that Jackie wasn't
happy. It's just to say that it

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wasn't easy. You know, well, because you're you're talking about a time

352
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when the idea of sex addiction wasn't
that prevalent, right, yes, you

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00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:37.039
are. And you're talking also about
a time when, you know, prior

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to the feminism movement of the nineteen
seventies, women were a little bit more

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accepting of these kinds of things,
you know, like they used to say,

356
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:53.079
great men have great flaws in order
to sort of justify this kind of

357
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behavior. And Jackie felt very differently
about all of this in the nineteen seventies,

358
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:02.839
because, you know, in the
nineteen sixties, when Joan Kennedy,

359
00:29:02.920 --> 00:29:06.720
Ted Kennedy's wife, went to Jackie
to ask her, what do I do

360
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about Ted's infidelity? Jackie told her, well, you know, you just

361
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have to you have to deal with
it. You know, you have to

362
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deal with it for the family,
and you just have to deal with it.

363
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:21.079
In seventies, when Ted was still
being unfaithful to Joan, and Joan

364
00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:25.359
went to Jackie and asked for advice. Jackie gave Joan her divorce lawyer.

365
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You know, so you see this
gradual evolution in women, you know,

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from the sixties to the seventies,
and many of the many of their you

367
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know, the ways that they thought
about marriage in the nineteen sixty they no

368
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:44.559
longer felt that way in the nineteen
seventies, and Jackie certainly did not.

369
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:48.440
You know, Randy, that could
almost be a book in itself if you

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00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:56.559
just did a historical perspective on first
ladies that were cheated on. Oh my

371
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gosh, you know, you gotta
wonder, you know, I mean,

372
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:08.119
I personally think that maybe the only
no, I don't really think I can

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think of a president who didn't cheat
on his wife, you know, other

374
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:15.440
than I guess perhaps Barack Obama.
I would be surprised to find if that's

375
00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:22.519
I've never heard of a Barack Obama
mistress, but you certainly heard of you

376
00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:26.480
know what, I've never heard of
a George W. Bush mistress. Well,

377
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:29.319
I know they tried to. They
try to throw Condeliza Rice in the

378
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:32.799
pit a couple of times, you
know, but that's the nature, you

379
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:34.559
know, they're always You're yeah,
I've never heard. I mean, I've

380
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:40.079
written a book about Barbara Bush,
Laura Bush, and Dorothy Bush. It

381
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:45.359
was called Grayson Steele, and I
did a lot of research on George W.

382
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:48.119
And I've never heard of a George
W. Bush mistress. And I

383
00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:52.319
personally believed so I think that,
you know, I think that that's kind

384
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:56.920
of the maybe the exception to the
rule. You're right, it would be

385
00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:00.880
an interesting research project, you know, to to do something like that.

386
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:07.000
Well, you know, it's amazing
because as you look and you're you're appreciating

387
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:14.400
all these dynamics, you have a
big component of you know, the Kennedy

388
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:19.119
mistake was Camelot. And you write
about that, tell us, well,

389
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:23.519
you know when when JFK, after
JFK was assassinated, Jackie you know,

390
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:32.200
wanted to frame the Kennedy presidency and
in a way that would be memorable.

391
00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:37.319
And and she you know, had
sort of romanticized, if you will,

392
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:42.799
a lot of what happened as you
know, Camelot. And a lot of

393
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:47.640
people felt that JFK would never have
approved of that, you know, that

394
00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:55.119
that that was much more romantic and
thinking than JFK ever was as a as

395
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:59.559
a as a man or as a
president. But Jackie was a very sort

396
00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:05.759
of a fan full, romantic,
imaginative, creative person. And and she

397
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:12.440
gave an interview and uh, you
know, spoke of Camelot, and that

398
00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:17.680
caught on after that interview. Sure. Yeah, and even today people think

399
00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:22.119
of, you know, the Kennedy
administration as as a as a sort of

400
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:30.880
you know, idealistic Camelot like administration. Wow. Uh, this is uh,

401
00:32:30.400 --> 00:32:36.960
you know, been just an incredible
ride and journey to revisit. Uh,

402
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:39.559
you know, especially the new material, Randy that you were able to

403
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:45.599
bring forth. Uh, you know, you were able to interview hundreds people,

404
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:47.799
and and one of the things you
talked about was that, uh,

405
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.319
you know, at times when you
wouldn't be able to get information, you

406
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:55.799
know, from people, while Jackie
was alive, you were able to,

407
00:32:57.400 --> 00:33:00.200
you know, kind of pierce a
little bit of you know, of the

408
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:04.079
venia if I might say, and
I mean there's disrespectfully, but I mean

409
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:07.880
be able to you know, break
through and talk to some of her friends

410
00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:10.480
that normally, you know, would
not be open because of the nature of

411
00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:15.240
Jackie. Because boy, you know, if you were in our inner circle,

412
00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.880
you had to know that there was
that you know, that public,

413
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.079
private, uh secret part of her
life, and those were clear boundaries.

414
00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:27.519
And if you violated those boundaries,
then you were pretty much eighty six,

415
00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:30.799
weren't you. Well, yeah,
I don't no doubt about it. You

416
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:36.319
know. Another thing Bill that that
has happened is, you know, sort

417
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:42.240
of my growth as as an historian
over the last in twenty five years as

418
00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:49.759
a Kennedy historian. And when people
read my books, they realize that you're

419
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:54.880
getting, you know, an empathetic
true story in a way that is not

420
00:33:55.200 --> 00:34:00.599
a hatchet job or in a way
that you know, is overly critical or

421
00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:06.119
sensational. So my reputation sort of
has preceded me with each Kennedy book,

422
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:09.800
and all I really have to do
it with a source who might be who

423
00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:15.199
might have second thoughts, is,
you know, send my previous Kennedy books

424
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:20.280
as my best representation of what I
do. And if you read them and

425
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:22.920
you like them, then you'll talk
to me. If you don't like them,

426
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:25.880
then you won't. And there's nothing
there's nothing I can do with that,

427
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:29.440
you know, But I just I
give it my best. I give

428
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:34.280
each book my best shock And you
know, I think the way I was

429
00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:38.920
raised in Philadelphia, you know where
I am actually right now is to be

430
00:34:39.079 --> 00:34:44.920
fair and to be honest and to
not take advantage of people and to just

431
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:49.400
kind of be a good person.
And I think I've been able to bring

432
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:54.239
that to my work and that's what's
helped me get to sources and get them

433
00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:59.920
to trust me. We come back. We've got more from Jay Randy Terrible,

434
00:35:00.440 --> 00:35:04.239
the book Jackie Public, Private and
Secret. Stay with us more after

435
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:17.440
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nine nine h three five eight eight
hundred six nine nine three five eight eight

474
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:20.159
hundred six nine nine three five eight. Well, welcome back, Bill Martinez.

475
00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:22.400
Here, we're talking with Jay Randy
ter Barelli. His new book,

476
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:29.079
Jackie Public Private Secret, New York
Times bestselling author, comes a fresh,

477
00:38:29.360 --> 00:38:35.000
often startling look at the life of
this legendary first Lady, Jacqueline Kennedy on

478
00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:39.000
Nassas. It's based on hundreds of
interviews with friends, family and lovers over

479
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:45.719
a thirty year period, as well
as previously unreleased material from the JFK Library.

480
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:51.159
The Kennedy historian paints and unforgettable new
portrait of a woman whose flaws and

481
00:38:51.280 --> 00:38:57.320
contradictions only serve to maker even that
much more endearing and iconic. I might

482
00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:01.960
say, and before the break we
were talking Randy that when you go and

483
00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:08.559
you interview people, and you give
them samples of past interviews and the other

484
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:15.239
thing that I appreciate about your approach
to this is that if if an interviewee

485
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:21.920
had any contest with what you said
and we're uncomfortable and wanted to add it

486
00:39:22.079 --> 00:39:27.639
or be eliminated, you didn't necessarily
pitch a fit. You you accommodated their

487
00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:31.800
request. Is am I remembering that
correctly? Yeah? Bill, happens all

488
00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:37.000
the time, you know, because
I do something that most people, most

489
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:42.679
reporters don't do, and I understand
why they don't do it, and maybe

490
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:49.320
they have good reasons, But for
me, I have never wanted to have

491
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.880
a person be interviewed for one of
my books and then be filled with regret

492
00:39:53.559 --> 00:39:59.719
about having said who knows what you
know? And so what I do is

493
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:07.559
I send a transcript of what it
is that they said back to them so

494
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:10.440
that they can have an opportunity to
change it. And let me tell you,

495
00:40:10.840 --> 00:40:14.400
ninety nine point ninety nine percent of
the time they will change it,

496
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:19.719
you know, because because nothing,
nothing, nothing is more shocking than seeing

497
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:23.480
your words in print, you know. But I'd rather they have an opportunity

498
00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:29.119
to do that before the book comes
out than be upset about the book,

499
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:34.920
because these are people's precious family memories, you know, and and gosh,

500
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:40.639
you know it, no story is
worth having somebody be upset over share it.

501
00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:44.840
I'd rather look, I tell my
research team, there are so many

502
00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:49.599
stories in the world. This one
particular story that this person doesn't want told

503
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:52.360
doesn't need to be told. I
always say, just because something is true,

504
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:57.639
it doesn't doesn't mean it needs to
be known, you know. And

505
00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:02.239
you might think that that's strange coming
from a biographer, but I do still

506
00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:07.360
adhere to that just because something is
true doesn't mean it needs to be known,

507
00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:13.000
you know. I think I think
that's a value that your parents instilled

508
00:41:13.119 --> 00:41:15.599
on you. That's old school.
I was raised the same way about doing

509
00:41:15.719 --> 00:41:20.159
unto others the way you would want
them to do unto you. And we've

510
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:24.159
lost sight of that, Randy,
and this culture our country is paying a

511
00:41:24.280 --> 00:41:30.840
price for the lack of civility and
common we would refer to as common respect

512
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:34.559
today and the social media world,
as we touched on, it's all about

513
00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:38.639
clicks, about salaciousness, just about
you know, you know, I don't

514
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:45.840
know, raising curiosities in an area
that doesn't necessarily benefit anybody, but the

515
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:50.559
person that's putting it out there,
they think because in the long run,

516
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:52.960
if that was your modus OPERENDI,
people wouldn't want to talk to you,

517
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:57.519
and and and even if they did, they would just know, well,

518
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:02.280
this is the type of journalists Randy
is, and they would question maybe,

519
00:42:02.599 --> 00:42:07.559
well certainly a little bit of your
integrity, if not your ethics. Well,

520
00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:09.199
I, you know, thank you
for saying that. I agree with.

521
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:14.280
You know. My book debuted on
Sunday on the New York Times list

522
00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:16.519
at number three, you know,
which, which is you know, which

523
00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:21.000
is a pretty high debut. And
I think that that I think that,

524
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:25.679
you know, there's a fascination about
Jackie. Of course that that is enduring,

525
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:30.920
and people want, you know,
they wanted to be approached respectfully,

526
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:32.199
you know, And that's what I
tried to do with this book. I

527
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:38.119
I tried to be as respectful of
her as I possibly could, but at

528
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:40.920
the same time by by it.
But at the same time, I wanted

529
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:46.719
to tell a real true story about
her that would be historically accurate. And

530
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:51.719
you know, I'm withstand the test
of time. So I'm hoping that I

531
00:42:51.800 --> 00:42:53.599
was able to achieve that with this
book. Well, I I, well,

532
00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:57.599
I gotta tell you, Randy,
I believe you did. This is

533
00:42:57.719 --> 00:43:01.639
just uh, you know, for
people who have a sense of endearment for

534
00:43:01.719 --> 00:43:05.559
the First Lady. As you said, Uh, you know, she wasn't

535
00:43:05.559 --> 00:43:07.800
an angel, she wasn't perfect,
but she was another one of us,

536
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:13.119
you know, in the journey of
life, a mother, a wife,

537
00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:17.239
you know, uh, you know, an iconic figure and blessed in so

538
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:22.440
many ways. And here it is, I mean, she's there, uh,

539
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:27.960
experiencing, like you said, uh, the traumatic experience of you know,

540
00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:32.159
watching her husband's head blown off and
uh, you know, and going

541
00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:37.199
through all that, and as you
said, suffering with PTSD, PTSD till

542
00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:43.559
the day she died. Uh,
And you know, and even after afterwards,

543
00:43:43.960 --> 00:43:47.639
trying to find some you know,
some respite, someplace where she could

544
00:43:47.719 --> 00:43:52.159
go and maybe process, you know, what had happened to her, because

545
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:55.800
you know, one moment, you
know, she's the First Lady, she's

546
00:43:55.840 --> 00:44:00.159
in the White House, and the
next moment, you know, things are

547
00:44:00.199 --> 00:44:05.000
being packed and and her world's upside
down. Here I can only imagine what

548
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:07.800
she must have endured. Well,
you're absolutely right, Bill, I mean,

549
00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:12.159
you know, her, her identity, her whole identity became you know,

550
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:16.800
the First Lady, and and you
know when that was taken from her.

551
00:44:17.320 --> 00:44:22.559
It was instantaneously taken from her.
You know, they wanted they wanted

552
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:25.719
her out of the White House.
And you know, and and LBJ was

553
00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:30.440
was so nice to her. Uh
and he allowed her to stay far longer

554
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:37.639
than any any president should have been
expected to allow the former family to stay

555
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:40.800
at the White House, you know, but he was very gracious to her.

556
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:45.440
And you know, but you know, her life changed, and also,

557
00:44:45.519 --> 00:44:49.920
as I wrote in the book,
her family's life changed. You know,

558
00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:53.400
Hugh walking class, you know,
he said to Jamie at one point,

559
00:44:53.480 --> 00:44:59.840
you know, we lost it all, like the entire family's existent.

560
00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:06.039
Yeah, it'd all been I mean, the president will go to their home

561
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:08.079
in Newport for weekends. It was
called the Newport White House. They got

562
00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:12.800
used to the idea of, you
know, the President is coming on Friday.

563
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.119
You know, they loved JFK.
They loved America. They were patriots,

564
00:45:16.599 --> 00:45:20.840
and when all that was just taken
from them, and not only affected

565
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:24.000
Jackie, but it affected everybody in
the family and they all had to figure

566
00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:27.719
out, you know, how do
we go forward now? Right? You

567
00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:32.239
know, there was often written about
the contention, the dynamic tension between the

568
00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:38.800
president and Vice President JFK and Lyndon
ban Johnson. It's it's heartwarming to consider

569
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:45.599
that Lyndon, you know, was
compassionate towards Jackie in allowing her to make

570
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:52.719
the transition because it doesn't necessarily comport
with the kind of things that were thrown

571
00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:55.039
out about these two families. Oh, you're absolutely right. You know,

572
00:45:55.159 --> 00:46:01.519
I had the opportunity to go to
the LBJ library and and you know see

573
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:08.639
dozens of letters between Jackie and LBJ
over the years, over the span of

574
00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:13.800
of of his life. He was
only I think he was only sixty four

575
00:46:13.880 --> 00:46:17.400
when he died, which you know, which it's astonishing to me. But

576
00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:22.920
you know, if you read this
correspondence, you see how close that how

577
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:27.400
close they were, and how much
affection Jackie had, and you know,

578
00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:31.159
they shared this this this moment in
time, you know exactly. And there's

579
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:36.360
a terrible picture of of them on
on Air Force one, you know,

580
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:42.760
when when ye coming back and he's
taking the oath of office and Jackie is

581
00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:46.000
standing there looking, you know,
paralyzed, and it's just they shared this

582
00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:51.000
time and I think they never forgot
it. Well, we've got about three

583
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:54.519
minutes left here, Randy, uh
we we hadn't even touched on the relationship,

584
00:46:54.639 --> 00:47:00.960
the marriage, uh, you know
with uh, with onnassas and uh

585
00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:05.480
and also you know, her final
days. So I'm gonna let you kind

586
00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:08.599
of summarize that and you know,
take us, take us through the end

587
00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:14.239
here, go ahead. Well,
I mean we're talking about thirty years,

588
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:16.199
thirty five years. But I can
just say that, you know, she,

589
00:47:16.519 --> 00:47:20.960
you know, she she she did
find happiness, you know. And

590
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:24.760
and she you know, despite her
PTSD, she did find happiness and and

591
00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:28.639
and you know, I want to
also say that, you know, she

592
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:34.840
was her mother's biggest champion when Janet
was suffering from Alzheimer's, and Jackie became,

593
00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:37.480
as I wrote in this book for
the first time, her chief and

594
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:42.440
primary caretaker for ten years, you
know. And and it's a real interesting

595
00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:47.920
and good story of of a daughter
caring for her mother during the most challenging

596
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.039
time in the mom's life. And
I and I think it's a story that

597
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:54.400
should be told because many people can
identify with, you know, caring for

598
00:47:54.559 --> 00:47:59.519
an elderly parent with Alzheimer's. It's
not easy. And Jackie, Jackie somehow

599
00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:01.920
did it. While she was also
an editor at Double Day in New York

600
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:06.519
City, working five days a week
in New York, going to Newport on

601
00:48:06.599 --> 00:48:09.880
weekends to care for her mother,
and without anybody knowing anything about it until

602
00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:14.920
amazing. Yeah. Wow, it's
a good story. And I hope people

603
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:16.960
have a chance to read the book. I think that they'll enjoy it,

604
00:48:17.880 --> 00:48:22.199
you know, with without a doubt. It is one uh that just keeps

605
00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:25.920
you know, it captures you from
one chapter to the next. Randy,

606
00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:30.760
you, it is so well written, and you've blessed us greatly by doing

607
00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:34.639
that. And I didn't mean to, you know, put you on the

608
00:48:34.679 --> 00:48:37.559
spot so much, because there's just
so much more. And I know that

609
00:48:37.719 --> 00:48:39.920
even the first time you and I
said, look at we need more time,

610
00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:44.719
and even now that we've got more
time, we need more time again.

611
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:47.800
But but for you know, for
our viewers, you got all the

612
00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:52.119
time once you get to your hands
on the book. From Jay Randy Terre

613
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:57.719
Borrelli, New York Times bestselling author
of Jackie, Janet and Lee, this

614
00:48:57.920 --> 00:49:02.519
new book Jackie, Public, Private
and Secret, About a minute left here?

615
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:07.960
What's your what's your want and hope
and desire that the readers would take

616
00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:12.519
you know from this, you know, you know because you gave us a

617
00:49:12.599 --> 00:49:16.480
lot of new new things to think
about and to understand about this iconic figure

618
00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:22.559
that you know still is held in
highest forte esteem in our hearts. Thanks

619
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:25.760
for asking, Bill, I just
want to bring people closer to to you

620
00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:30.280
know, to the legend. It's
funny when JFK was assassinated, Jackie said,

621
00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:34.760
now he's legend, when he would
have preferred to just be human.

622
00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:37.880
And that is true of Jackie as
well. You know, she she's a

623
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:42.239
legend, but all she really wanted
to do is be a woman and a

624
00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:45.280
mother and a daughter, you know. And so this book is really about

625
00:49:45.960 --> 00:49:50.840
you know, the woman, the
mother, the daughter, the sister and

626
00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:53.000
the person that Jackie was. So
thanks for having me on to talk about

627
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:55.519
it, Bill, I really appreciate
it. Randy got blush you. Thank

628
00:49:55.559 --> 00:50:00.079
you so much. This is so
awesome. Thanks again to Randy Parbarelli for

629
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:05.400
being with us. Is Brandy book
Jackie Public Private Secret. You must read

630
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:08.880
this. This is this is gonna
be powerful to you and the added insight

631
00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:14.559
that he gives and the team the
research that they've done. You know,

632
00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:20.679
this isn't about being salacious, uh, It's about being historically correct and respectful.

633
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:22.280
You're going to be blessed by it. Hey, our thanks again to

634
00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:25.760
Randy Terborrelli for coming on the show. For more information and to be a

635
00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:30.599
part of this mighty Martinez movement to
return to God and to save our country.

636
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:34.280
Go to Bill Martinez Show dot com. Hey, God bless you and

637
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:37.760
keep you, and make His face
shine upon you. Go and be blessed

638
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:39.079
beyond your imagination. Thanks again for
being with us.