Dr Michael Rubin Middle East Expert Reports on the Latest from the Israel Hamas War

0:00 The topics and opinions express in the following show are solely those of the hosts and their guests and not those of w FOCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services, or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability, explicit or implied shall be extended to W FOURCY Radio or its employees are affiliates. Any questions or comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you for choosing W FOURCY Radio. Well, hello and welcome. I am Bill Martinez and we are live. Great to have you along with us sharing a part of your day. Doctor Michael Rubin is back with us a little least expert talking about the latest from the Israel Hamas war. Doctor Michael Rubin is the nineteen forty five contributing editor, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and former Pentagon official, talking about Israel in the Middle East from the mounting international pressure, including from the US, for a humanitarian pause or a ceasefire altogether. The objectives is what we want to look at of all players you know from Israel Hamas, Iran America HESBLA, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Cutter Russia and China, plus what's next for Net and Yahoo and the pas of Boss. What is Iran's endgame here as well? Welcome doctor Michael Rubin. Michael, good

1:30 to have you with us. How are you, sir? Pretty good? Thank you for having me. Well tell you, the last time you were here, you sent out the warning. You said that, you know, the United States was on a little bit of different agenda. What Joe Biden was saying out of his mouth was one thing, but yet there were conflicting agendas. And of course now here we are almost a month later, and those conflicting agendas, even within our own State Department are quite pronounced, aren't they. You're absolutely right, though, I Mean, what I'd said before was that the two aircraft carriers weren't meant to deter Iran. They were meant to Teru Israel. And I think subsequent events have shown that. Certainly we see the case where the State Department and the Biden administration is acting in sharp dissonance to what they actually did before. So, for example, if you want to compare what's happening in Gaza to what happened is in the fight against the Islamic State in Mosoul and Raka. Well, when was the call for the humanitarian pause against the Islamic State. And I've been to both Mosol and Raka. The urban warfare there was much more severe than what we're seeing now inside Gaza right Well, And you know, it's amazing how quickly Michael had turned and you and I kind of hinted to this that the mainstream media would take the narrative and twist it around. Although there was a little bit of balance this week with the March for Israel in DC, after all those marches

3:01 across the country pro Palestinian marches. And you know, I believe what's coming out, you know, through outlets like ourselves and your voice as well, is that we must not forget the difference between good and evil. Right. I think you're absolutely right. I mean, in terms of the moral equivalents which we see, it's just been astounding when it comes to anti Semitism, which was always higher than violence against Christians, violence against Muslims, violence against Hindus, it's increased four hundred percent even just since the law. Under the past month, it really has become a problem and the Biden administration seems unwilling to condemn anti Semitism without talking about Islamophobia. Well, and it's interesting.

3:53 You know, we're very protective, very protective of Muslims, and you know, the government's real quick to you know, talk about hate crimes. But look at the incidences of hate crimes against against Jews in America. As you said, I think Christopher Ray said it quite aptly. What you know they represent, Jews represent about four percent of the population in America, but yet are subjected to as you say, at that time was sixty percent, but now you know the numbers are like a four hundred percent increase of hate crimes and anti sempitism. Well, and simply put, when we're just looking at moral equivalency, when we're looking at the politics of this, it's look, you can sympathize with the Palestinian national cause, but it should be a no brainer to say, I stand against taking civilians hostage, I stand against holding on pregnant women, I stand against taking babies hostage and using them as human shields. The fact that on our college campuses people cannot say that with any degree of moral clarity is deeply upsetting. You know, Earlier this week, I spoke at Boden University campus and so many people came out of the woodwork and said, you know, we're so thrilled to finally get an alternative voice to hear the other side with regard to what's going on with regard to policy, but we're afraid to say that openly because of the social ramifications. When

5:26 you have a college like Boden, where you have elite kids, it really seems upsetting that the administrator's administration doesn't understand there's something seriously seriously wrong if people don't feel that they can speak openly on campus in favor of certain mainstream political and foreign policy views. Well, you make an excellent point here, Michael, because the fact is it lies at their feet, as you know, the administration, as the presidents of this university, you know what is their mission, but to you know, protect you know, the integrity of the university, show that you can have a place where freedom of speech takes place, because that's where our intellect is expanded and enlarged. Is it not when we can have you know, we can have a fair conversation and debate about these issues. Right, I think you're absolutely right Bill. You know all this nonsense about microaggressions. First of all, they're micro. You should learn how to ignore anything which makes you uncomfortable, if it's just an opponent's argument something like that. But I'm much more worried about the macroaggressions. I mean, the world is filled with those who would do such an aggression as occurred on October seventh, when Hamas launched the greatest program against Jews since the Holocaust.

6:51 That's what we should be concentrating on. This notion that you know, speech is violence or it makes me uncomfortable. What we're doing is, as others have said, coddling the American mind in a way which isn't healthy for our mental development, our intellectual development, or US society at large. I agree one hundred percent. We're retarding their maduration process here, Michael, throughout this stuff. I mean, you know, we saw this starting to happen with performance trophies, and you know, then it evolves into you know, the point where you can't clap in an audience that's disturbing words that you're saying. And you know, as you say, all these microaggressions, and we're so focused on those, we forget the obvious macro ones. Right, Well, you're absolutely right. I mean, just not to harp on bode In College in Maine too much. But the students I went to dinner with afterwards said that they're not allowed to talk about You can't call someone a teacher, you can't talk tea you can't talk about teaching because that denotes a power argument that you can learn, but you can't teach. And that's of nonsense.

8:00 You need to come in and understand as a freshman, you don't understand everything in the subject. There is much for you to learn. And I still remember when I was studying my Islamic history, the amount of time I would spend in the library, the amount of time I would be memorizing things, not because I would be able to relate them by rote memorization, but how can you actually understand an area without accumulating the basic facts and history. And that's something with the whole generation of school kids, university and kids are eliding. Yeah, And the thing is what they're failing to see here, Michael, just like you said, is the use of language. It trips you up. Now you're not you know, all these years you've had a certain paradigm in a way of understanding language. Now you go into a different environment and you got to use words. It's kind of like I was sharing with somebody else. When I went in the Marine Corps. You learned right away that there was a specific language and a syntax that you had to use even to go to the bathroom. I mean it, And I know it sounds kind of funny right now and looking back at it, but it was like you're sitting there rehearsing constantly in your mind. Okay, how do I say this? So I go to the bathroom, that they're not going to throw me in a in a foot locker and you know, punish me because I didn't ask in the right Marine Corps way that I needed permission to go to the bathroom. Who exactly. The fact of the matter is, when when it comes to what's going on in the university campus, and what I've always

9:31 done when I taught is I mean all argue. And I truly believe this that people side tried to sidetrack arguments with discussions over vocabulary and terminology as an escapement mechanism to avoid tackling the intellectual intellectual issues at hand. So I always say, we can argue on the side about the vocabulary, but don't let that distract you. Don't let the trees corect you from the big picture. And that's what too many people are are missing. I don't care if you call, for example, Terris Islamist Jahati Salafi's or whatever term Islamic extremists is invotub at the time, but we need to address the problem set as a whole, and that too often is what we're not doing or allowing ourselves to get sidetracked. And that's where political correctness truly does become corrosive. We see this is when it gets to be a bit of an insult michae, when it's about well, it's about me winning the argument and debate, not advancing thought, not exercising you know, critical thought, so that as a result of our conversation, both of us are all the better for that. Isn't that isn't that to me? That's that's what I would hope would be the goal. But unfortunately, right now we're in a society that is so combative that it's it's more about winning an argument than it is about you know, like you said, say, advancing advancing the cause so that we're all the

11:01 smarter as a result of the interaction. Well, the only thing I'd pushed back on you all on that bill is I agree with you, except that this whole notion of cancel culture is about not having to win the argument. And in fact, when I'm talking to students, would I always say is if you're tempted to use a label to label your opponent. And again, when I was at Boden, there's a sit in, they tried to cancel me. They said that what I had written about defending Israel and criticizing Hamas was racist. It wasn't. And the point I make is if you're trying to use a label like that, you're trying to chill the date. You're trying to you're basically acknowledging that you can't win the argument on its merits.

11:45 And when I'm editing, and God helped my students when I edit, if they're trying to win an argument using adjectives or adverbs, I mean my mantra is the facts should speak for themselves. They shouldn't. You shouldn't need an adjective or an act to win your case. I mean that's yeah, I used to refer to it as a spirit of invalidation. You know, if I can invalidate my opponent, I'm taking you off the field of play, right. Yeah, And that's what they're trying to do. But you know, it doesn't work in the real world. And I think that a lot of these kids are going to be in for a world of hurt if they keep getting shielded by a university that wants to maintain an academic bubble. I'll go even further, Bill, As you know, I went to Yale, and I went to Yale in the nineteen nineties at the very beginning of the politically correct movement. Well, I wouldn't say the only thing to blame is the political correctness movement. Rather, the issue is this notion that students aren't adults and that they need to be protected from their actions, that they don't have agency. This whole notion of in loco parentis now at Yale University there is a ratio of administrators to students of one to one. Back in my day, if someone wanted to organize a an African American cultural night or a Native American cultural night, it was up to the student to organize that.

13:07 And more power to them. Right nowadays, however, you have administrators to do that job. Everything is handed to students on a silver platter. They don't learn how to take self initiative or struggle do the struggle to see whether any of whether they can convince their peers that what they're doing is important, and everyone becomes the poorer for that. Wow, Well it's uh, we got to grow up, Michael, I mean, we really do. And we need people, you know, these administrators. And I understand sometimes you know, the paradigm gets you caught up in the bureaucracy and you you miss out on the mission. And somehow there needs to be an awakening on these college campuses with these administrators to say, can we do better? Can we do better for the sake of the kids and for the sake of you know, the next generation of Americans. Well, you're absolutely right and today, and that's something I've been thinking of writing about. I've been looking at all these universities who are being criticized. They've had teachings, they've had various speeches, and they always cite the fact that, you know, on our university campus, we believe in free speech. Look, I have no doubt you believe in free speech. I'm worried about two things. One is quality of mind, and the second is if you truly believe in free speech and intellectual discourse, then when you're having these teachings and these panels, why aren't you trying to have a more balanced panel that actually has people disagreeing with each other on the panel, or are you trying to simply spoon feed and approved narrative.

14:35 If it is the latter, then you have a serious problem administration on your hand. And all those potential donors are absolutely right not to give you a single red sin. Well, and of course we saw what happened in the last couple of weeks here, Michael, is that these donors are pulling away from these universities, these Wolke universities, and especially that are demonstrating anti sem stism. They're saying they will have nothing with it. I say good for them, Good for them to do that, because this is a lesson that must be learned not only there, but also for these universities to take a look at all their revenue, all their sources of revenue. What kind of unfair influence are they having on the minds of our children? Well, you're absolutely right, though, and one of the unspoken aspects of what you're saying when we're talking about sources of revenue is that most of there's a direct correlation between the universities which have had the most egregious examples of anti Semitism and those that have received large donations, often behind the scenes, from Gulf states like Cutter, like Saudi Arabia, like Turkey. We're having the same problem with the Middle East now that we had with China before, and they're so called Confucius institutes. Exactly. The matter is, while people say about think tanks like where I work, American Enterprise suit doesn't take foreign money, but some think tanks do, and foreign money is corrupting. I condemn all think

16:07 tanks that take foreign money, period. But at the same time, the problem isn't the think tanks. The problem is the universities, which are far more corrupted than any institution in Washington. Well, the fact of the matter is that once there's an accepted pattern, who can control it? Michael, You can't control it. In government, We've got elites captured, We've got elected officials who are captured, you know, by the communist Chinese you know, follow the money. You know, these these Arab nations are you know, they've been quite revealing in this recent situation that has occurred in Israel. You know, it's kind of amazing, how kind of below the radar. And here we were hopeful that we were because of the Abraham Accords, we were going to possibly achieve Middle East. We had four or five Arab nations ready to come to the peace table and meet with Israel. And then suddenly here it is. I mean, and of course you talked about earw On a long time ago and you said, he's not what he seems to be, you know, just relax am in it. And sure enough he exposed himself, you know, full on here in the past weeks, and just as these other Arab nations have because they're not condemning Hamas. I think it's it's it's quite revealing to watch their position. Saudi Arabia seems to be playing it a little cool because I think they still want to have relationships with Israel and continue to move in this piece process that they were moving cutter as we

17:38 know, they're so compromised and two faced. You know, it's wherever the wind seems to be blowing at any one time. Iran is clear. We know what to expect from Iran. They want the full demise of Israel. And of course America is next, right, and you can just break it on down from there. You know who is for us and who is against us? Right, Well, you're absolutely right, Bill. First of all, top line is when you have incitement over decades, it's impossible to remove it with a stroke of a pen. That doesn't mean that the Abraham Accords didn't move things in the positive direction. And behind the scenes, when you've had this Islamic summit to address the situation in Gaza, Jordan, Morocco, the United Arab Emirates very much diluted the calls of the more radical regimes like Turkey and Iran to break diplomatic relations with Israel, to walk things back, to call a boycott for all of those issues. And so behind the scenes the Abraham Accords, you know, they're serving their purpose. At the same time, a lot of it is more complicated than perhaps this black and white approach in the news media scenes. What was going on that caused Hamas to launch this attack. Now, I'd identify two things. First of all, you're going to have transition in the Palestinian governance. And the reason is Mahmoudabas.

19:00 What is he eighty four or eighty five years old, He's the eighteenth year of his four year presidential term. He's a chainsmoker, and he hasn't he hasn't created a successor. So you've got a situation there. What this was about was a struggle for Palestinian leadership in which Hamas was trying to rally people around them so that they could make a move on the West Bank. At the same time, when it comes to the supreme leader of Iran, Ali Kameeni, he's eighty four years old, he's had answer twice, he's partially paralyzed. Say what you will about octogenarian Irani and Iyahtola's, but one thing we can agree on is they don't have a long lifespan. Now he's hitted his whole life to the elimination of the state of Israel. Is it possible psychologically that he wants to try to see this come to its fruition before he passes? Now, I've had this debate with Iranian studies people Bill and some will say, no, I don't think that's the case, because he would never risk everything the Islamic Republic has achieved all of its structures and so forth back home. But I'm not so sure that's the case, because I'm not sure he realizes how much is at risk. Because they've put down the woman Life freedom movement, he surrounded himself with a circle of sycophancy where I mean it's basically just yes men all around them, and therefore he may not realize how much is at risk, which is why this is really a perfect storm. Michael, let me let me interject this for just a moment and get your read on this. And that is the the Bodi, you know,

20:37 because there's some Arabs that feel like the Madi is coming. They have this sense and anticipation and that maybe this is the reason to finally go full blown here is that is anticipation by doing what they're doing, that they would promote the return of the Mahdi. Okay, well, first let me give some Islam one on one bill. The Madi, I mean basically is much more of an important figure, not just in Shia Islam, but specifically in twelve or Shia Islam. There's different types of Sheism out there, but the kind that's in Iran, the kind that's in Lebanon will call them twelve or Shiites. And the reason why they're twelve or Shiites is the split between the Sunnis and Shiites occurred upon the death of Muhammad because the question was who should be the successor. Those who became the Shihites said, I mean, everyone agreed by the way bill that it should be the most righteous person in the community. Those in the Shiites said, look, God chose Muhammad for a reason, therefore it makes sense to come through his family, and so they picked the prophets, a cousin and son in law Ali and then had I mean usually from father to son, sometimes brother to brother, until you got to the twelfth Ima, who was named the Mahdi Mohammad Almadi. Now he didn't die, he went into occultation, meaning he disappeared, and what theologians believe is at the end of time he's going to come back with actually Jesus Christ at his side in order to usher in a perfect Islamic government. Therefore,

22:11 by definition, until the Mahdi returns, government is by nature corrupt, unjust, and so forth. And this is where traditional Shites lie outside like in Iraq. If you've heard Iatola Sistani, he doesn't believe in Islamic rule because the Madi hasn't returned. Now, what Iotola Hoomioni, who led the nineteen seventy nine Iran Revolution, said, is we don't need to wait for the return of this Messiah figure, this Mahdi, because after all, Mohammad didn't separate mosque and states, so nor should we. We can be his deputy. And that's why the supreme leader in Iran isn't just the political leader.

22:51 He considers himself the deputy of the Messiah on earth. That's where that comes from. Now here's where it gets tricky. Some Shia believe that, just like with Christianity and the end of times and Armageddon and so forth, some Sheia believe that before the Mahdi can return, there's going to be a grand war. And where the ideology gets very dangerous is they believe that they can precipitate the war exactly. Now, just in summary bill in a nutshell. You may remember, between two thousand and five and twenty thirteen, there was an Iranian president named Mahmoud ahmadin the job, and he really freaked out a lot of people because his rhetoric was so over the top, his Holocaust denial, all of that. Thing what made him so special was he was the first Iranian president who wasn't to cleric, he wasn't a theologian. He actually came from an Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps background, and so many people saw him as a window into the thinking of the Revolutionary Guard. And when he started talking about hastening the return of the Mahdi, that's when people started thinking, you know, this guy, he wants nuclear weapons, he could bring war upon us, and this is where things get so dangerous. Now, make no mistake, this is a very much a minority view among theologians, but that doesn't matter. It's the guys with the guns that matter Exactlymic Revolutionary guardcore are the ones who have the guns and believe this nonsense. Wow,

24:25 well it's the problem. It's so important, you know, because as you and I talk, I think, I think the first time you and I talked, we talked about, uh, you know, how much the West does not understand about the Middle East. And again, you know it's very difficult. I mean, you have been studying this, you know, for how many decades and you know, we're looking back. As my other Israeli friend would say, Bill, you don't understand ancient hatred. This has going on for thousands of years. And I said, you're exactly right. And here we get present who come into office for four or eight years, and they're trying to understand, you know, thousands of years of history and nuance.

25:07 This is like near impossible, Michael Well, I mean, putting on my history cap and being a history nerd. The one thing I would point out, Bill is in this case, it doesn't need necessarily need to be thousands of years of hatred. Although it's a fantasy to believe that either Christians or Jews lived well under Islamic rule. They were minorities, they didn't have full rights, and so forth. But what always gets me is in nineteen forty six, the Intelligence Office of the Department of War, which is the predecessor of the Defense Intelligence Agency, was charged with determining what the greatest over the horizon threats to American national security would be, and what they came up with was two. The first was communism, which of course was a give me given what was happening in Manchuria and the Azerbaijan crisis. The second was Islamism. Now, mind you, this was a year before the partition of Palestine, two years before the creation of the state of Israel. So if the predecessor to the Defense Intelligence Agency was determining that Islamism was going to be a threat to the United States in the West, what were they basing this on? And what they were basing this on was something called the Muslim Brotherhood.

26:19 And this becomes important, Bill, because Hamas comes from the Muslim Brotherhood. Regetype Aridwan and Turkey comes from the Muslim Brotherhood. But basically what the Muslim Brotherhood was was it was a reactionary movement. Muslims believe that they were the perfect religion, that the Jews and the Christians had corrupted their revelation. But Muhammad revealed the perfect revelation. He's the seal of the prophets. Right now, then you get confronted by this fact that began when Napoleon invaded Egypt in seventeen ninety eight, but continued through World War One and so forth, where you've got a situation, why is it, why is it that we are so as Muslims if we are the perfect religion. Those who became the Muslim Brotherhood said, the problem is we haven't been Muslim enough. We've been polluted by the West, and we need to excize all Western influence in Egypt.

27:15 That effectively meant killing the prime minister, killing the cabinet ministers, or trying to very violent movement to extricate Western influence. Same thing that in it without religion, that mal tried to do during the Cultural Revolution in China, or the chemra Rus tried to do in Cambodia. That's what the Muslim Brotherhood is based on, and that's what the intelligence community recognized as a problem. The problem isn't the grievance of occupation. The problems problem is the ideology Exactamas excellent, that's great. Well, the thing that's amazing in recounting history, as you say, in nineteen forty six, if they identified then that Islamism was the issue, how in the heck did they think that Jews and islam were going to be able to cohabitate. Well, I mean, this is one of those issues in the past. I mean when we look at the aftermath of the creation of the state of Israel, if you want to talk about apartheid. If you want to talk about ethnic cleansing, just compare the numbers of the Jews in various Arab countries Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, or Jews in Iran and Turkey before the State of Israel, or before even nineteen sixty seven to now. I mean, in Lebanon you're down to five from a population of more than one hundred thousand.

28:36 Algeria you're down to zero from well over one hundred thousand. I mean, the fact of the matter is, we are looking at this not with moral clarity. But when I say we, I mean university campuses, intellectuals with maral inversion. And somehow it's become vogue in American society and especially in government and the Biden administration in the State Department, to believe that sacrifice of freedom, sacrifice of liberalism is somehow sophisticated. Let I mean, wake up, it's not. Yeah, And and look look at what's happened, you know, as you say, in the process of ethnic cleansing. What's happened, what's happened to you know, to Jews around the world as a result of this, Well, I mean You're absolutely right. But then again, there have been some shining examples which are becoming out of this, the support in India for Jewish community, for example, the support in some quarters of Europe.

29:33 But you know, the Israeli should be worried because there obviously is a problem with a young population. We've already seen among progressive Democrats in the United States a willingness to tilt with the towards the wind rather than stand on principle. If you have politicians who follow the mob rather than set the agenda, then we are going to be in big trouble in this country. And the Israelis certainly should no longer count on American support. You know, Michael, it's in interesting because this conversation has you know, ends up going in a bit of a circle in as much as that it all comes back to leadership, whether we're talking about universities, whether we're talking about governments, our own government, and that is that, where is the moral authority? Where is the leadership in all these areas that are so needed right now? And it seems that there's a clear vacancy of said leadership. And it's not just America.

30:30 I believe the world is crying out for you know, for leadership right now. Well, this is what frustrated me when I saw some of the headlines with regard to America standing alone and it's eroding our international proceeds. I'm reminded back when Mary Robinson, the former President of Ireland, I sponsored something called a conference against racism, Xenophobia and Islamophobia and so forth in Durban, South Africa, back in two thousand and two, and instead of being a conference against racism, it became an orgy of racism, an orgy of anti Semitism, and the United States at the time, under George W. Bush, refused to go. And you know what, it actually mattered. People care where the United States stands, because we were standing for moral clarity, and by our absence, we were denying that conference the legitimacy people like Mary Robinson so clearly cravedes. Fortunately, we are confusing leadership with a willingness with respect, and the United States shouldn't sacrifice the moral respect it has for the sake of being popular among the chattering class in Europe who have never found a genocide. They couldn't turn a blind die Tory. Well, Michael, I want to go back and focus on what's happening in the Gaza. The IDF is showing pictures of Hamas violating the Geneva Accords. I mean, what is there one hundred and sixty one hundred and sixty one rules of the Geneva Convention,

32:02 And clearly they have violated more than a handful, certainly involving civilians. Now we're seeing evidence where in fact they have been staging their operation in the basement of one of the largest hospitals around schools, putting civilians at risk. And you know, I guess the lack of outrage in the international community is such that it's quite it's quite disturbing. But thank god for the IDF showing these pictures that cannot be denied. Well, Bill, first of all, I agree with you and a lot of people out there again in the chatter and class misunderstand international law. The basis of the Geneva Conventions governing war and warfare and protections were that combatants had certain responsibilities. For example, they needed to wear uniforms, they couldn't hide among civilians and so forth. And only if you abide it by those rules, were you've given the rights of the Geneva conventions, and this notion that the rights should apply universally whether or not a group follows the rules is actually very counterproductive because if you suffer no penalty for having your headquarters underneath the hospital, or firing from schools, or using ambulances as a mode of attack, then what you're doing is encouraging that tactic in the future. What really gets me and the Middle East analyst Tom Gross has pointed this out is back in the New York Times, back in the

33:36 Washington Posts, back in National Public Radio, going back to twenty fourteen, all of them refer to the Hamas tunnels and command post under the SIFA hospital. So if we could accept this back in twenty fourteen based on their own reporters reporting, why are we trying to put this down the memory hole now and casting doubt? I mean, the only answer is many of these report orders are partisan to Hamas, no doubt. Well, we saw that immediately because it took no time, as we addressed earlier, I mean within a news cycle, they had inverted the narrative. And and this is where you know Hamas has been very effective in controlling the disinformation campaign. Yeah, no, you're you're absolutely right. But part of this also is that within the press, I mean, my brother used to be a journalist down in Miami, I mean decades ago, and back at the time, people would have to start on the beat and do the whole I mean the police beat or whatever, who, where, with and why, and save the analysis for someone else. What's happened is as a especially after Watergate, there was this romantic notion about so many journalis that so many journalists had where they wanted to change the world. That's not their job, and they would get credentialed from the Columbia Journalism School or wherever, not ever do the basic ethical work that taught them the study of journalism and simply try to set a new agenda.

35:09 Then there's this notion that in order to report accurately, you have to be from or of this group. If you want to report accurately from the Gaza Strip, don't send someone who lives there. Send someone who's impartial, Send someone who's not going to be a member of Hamas. And this idea that journalists, freelancers or otherwise were involved in the raid is absolutely astounding, especially when there's photos of some of them carrying grenades. What is the New York Times thinking or CNN right, absolutely, yeah, I mean you know it's like, no, no big surprise. I mean, CNN member here in the States they got the tip on was it Roger Stone's arrest? Right, somehow, just by chance, they happen to be there as Rogerstone was being So it's like, as you say, this has become sadly the standard of journalism, which is far from professional. And when it comes to Al Jazeera, Bill, I mean back in Iraq, what American troops learned fairly early is if they got a tip about an insurgent in a building, the first thing they would look out for would be Al Jazera cameraman anywhere near that building, because if there were Al Jazera cameramen, in all likelihood it was an ambush. There was no insurgent. There was just a big bomb, and Al Jazeera is there to film the Americans getting killed. The fact of the matter is there's a complicitcy here. I was shocked when I lived in Israel doing a post stock at Hebrew University back in two thousand and one, two

36:42 thousand and two to learn and this was at a time of one of the big terror campaigns, so a lot of journalists flooded in. You could not report from the Gaza Strip unless you hired a Palestinian minder. Well, to me, that means protection money and the New York Time, CNN, any of these cameras cruise should very much acknowledge that they have paid a certain amount of money for a fixer, because while they can say it's to get this interview, I mean with a nod and a wink. I mean, it's like the horse head in the bed, then you're an offer you can't refuse. Exactly. Yeah, we know that scenario. So here we are clearly pictures are showing video. IDF has captured the video of this, of this evidence. And as you say in twenty fourteen, because we even had reporters here in America, I know from Fox News even that you know, we're able to take a bit of a tour of these tunnels, and you know it's like, what did they think was going to happen with these tunnels?

37:45 You're absolutely right? And how were they built? I mean, where did the concrete come from, Where did the gasoline come from, the power the generators to run the ventilation system. I mean, then again, people also need to simply look at the statistics from Gaza before they spat off this propaganda. The life expectancy in Gaza is higher than it is in India and Brazil, infommortality is lower. The fact of the matter is Gaza wasn't this open air prison camp. And when people talk about Gaza being one of the most population dense places on Earth, well, I'm sorry. Tel Aviv has twice the population density of the Gaza strip. And yet you're not saying boo when Hamas starts launching rockets at Tel Aviv. And the fact of the matter is there's something very very wrong. We should never trust data from dictators and that or from authoritarian mission movements, and that's exactly what we're doing. Well, and let's go back to your book, right, your book that you wrote about, you know, interacting and dancing with rogue regimes. I mean, come on, you're absolutely right, Bill, I mean, the fact of the matter is, I mean, what the purpose of that book was way back when is when I worked in the Pentagon and when I circulated around I rock in Afghanistan. What I saw was the American military was doing after action reports all the time. You go out of patrol. The first thing you do before you take a shower, you get some chow is. You all meet and determine what mistakes people made. And the idea isn't to embarrass people.

39:14 The ideas to keep everyone alive and operate at their greatest efficiency. And we do this at a macro level. Why do military units go to Gettysburg to learn about the command decisions there and discuss them through It's all about after action. The State Department has never done a single instance of an after action report for a process of rogue regime diplomacy. What lessons can we apply from North Korea and our outreach there? What lessons can we apply from from our past Middle East peace processing? This is why we're like Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown who lines up on his back, or its Groundhog Day. We keep making the mistake time and time again. But since diplomats only serve two years in a post, we forget or because I honestly think this is a key issue, everyone in the State Department is very very smart, maybe not wise, but very very smart. And if you're going to make it to the top, you've got to get lucky. You've got to be in that area where there's a crisis. Well, or you've got to break some barrier. So you had Dennis Ross decide, let's meet with the PLO, something Andrew Young got fired for as the UN ambassador during the Carter administration.

40:24 Or you had Bill Burns, who's now the head of the CIA, say let's meet with Mohamar Kadaffi. Or you had Jake Sullivan, as a young aide to Hillary Clinton, say let's meet with the Islamic Republic of Iran. Except the same offer that every area studies experts said, they're not sincere, they're not the right. People don't do this, But Jake Sullivan doesn't care because he became National Security advisor. It's sacrificing national security for the sake of personal ego, right, Well, it is. It's tough, Michael. I mean again, what seems to be is this clear moral leadership that has been a tradition for America. But it seems that for a number of decades we find ourselves vacant of that moral leadership, and we're all paying a price for it. And then I say all, I mean not just America, but the world. As you pointed out, because the world looks to America for some moral clarity, does it not? Even still, I believe, even still, look, there's a reason. Let me put it this way.

41:30 I believe something like the European Union has seven percent of the world's population, twenty five percent of the world's economy, and fifty percent of the world's social service spending, which is why so many refugees flee towards the European Union. Then, for example, Saudi Arabia exactly. I mean, you think if you're a Syrian refugee, same religion, same language, so forth easier going to Saudi Arabia. What they come to the United States for is our freedom, for our liberty. And make no mistake, while the Europeans are very bad at integrating the Muslim population on a per capita basis, the Muslim population in the United States is far more successful than the average American. So forget all this nonsense about Islamophobia. The point of this is people are coming for our freedom. And this notion that the younger generation is ashamed of America, that somehow the word America has become a triggering word, or the American flag is somehow symbolic of something other than freedom and liberty. It really shows the rot and the cancer in our intellectual community, you know, without a doubt. We've got a couple of minutes left here, Michael, and you know, going back to Israel Hamas, we haven't even talked about, you know, Hezbolah. I want to touch on that as well. But you know, it looks like we still have months ahead before the IDF unless something really breaks through for them to clear you know, through the tunnels and to

43:02 clear Hamas out once and for all. And you know, and the next time we get together we'll address what potentially is next for the Gaza. You're you're absolutely right. I mean one of the problems is, well, it might be natural, and the Biden administration is leaning to this of bringing in the Palestinian Authority, which after all, was thrown out in a coup in two thousand and seven by Amas. Right. The problem is Mapo Debas is eighty four years old, so that's a major issue. And he's not all that popular in I mean, he's less popular. I mean, he's more popular than Amas. But that's also partly the grasses greener. On the other side, the analogy which I would look at Bill would be the Taithe Accords, which in nineteen ninety two ended the Lebanon Civil War, and what you basically have with Saudi Arabia under the guise of the businessmen, the Lebanese businessman Rafi Kadiri, try to guarantee the reconstruction the AID. One of the things the United States is going to have to look out and that worked, by the way, into has been assassinated back in two thousand and five. What we can't allow to happen is Hamas to survive, because that will simply be a victory for them. At the same time, you can't allow the people with blood on their hands to have a role in the reconstruction AID and to profit over the October seventh Cobra exactly. Well, so how do you see

44:36 this playing out? I mean, you know, for me, as an outsider, I don't know that you can even live with the Palestinian authority. It just seems to be so all so compromised. And can they bring back some semblance of order, you know, to to the Gosam Michael Well bill. This is where I would throw the racism back, the racism charge back at so many who want to defend Hamas and the Palestinians now, because this notion that the Palestinians don't have agency, that they shouldn't be held accountable for their own actions, that things just passively happen to them, is in my view racist. If you want to respect Palestinians, you hold them accountable for their actions. You don't bail them out of their actions. And only then will they actually turn the corner and turn their turn their shoulder to the leadership which has failed them so tremendously. You know, Bill, I'm reminded of Amwar Sadat. People think of Amwar Sadat as a great peacemaker now won the Nobel Prize. Camp David accord to all of that, but they forget that am War Saddad, before he decided to go to the Kanesse to seek peace with Israel, he tried to achieve his victory through war and he lost badly.

45:58 Right, the only way the power Stadians are going to move forward is to lose badly, not to be dealt out. This notion that somehow we should give ceasefires, that the UN Secretary generals saying, and even Joe Biden, well, where is the ceasefire? For the Islamic state. Would that have helped the people suffering under the Islamic state. We actually need to have some broader perspective here and understand that we shouldn't be repeating the mistakes of the past. Well, Goldameyer said it quite clearly, Michael, as you'll recall, you know, if Hamash put down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel put down their arms, Israel in essence would be annihilated. You're you're absolutely right on that. And but when you ask where things are going, Bill has what happened with Goldenmayer who was cut off guard in the nineteen seventy three Young Kippur War. She remained in command until the war was over, and then she was thrown out for her mistakes. I expect the same thing is going to happen to Benjamin Natanyahu. That what's important here is if he has nothing to lose, If his entire legacy isn't, Israel's startup nation status isn't, its economy isn't. Everything he's achieved so far, But it just comes down to October seventh. He's going to do his darnness to make sure that his legacy is eliminating Hamas once and for all. He's not going to listen to some senile old man in the White House. Exactly in the northern in the northern border, Hezbola, it's like they're chomping at the bit. I mean, they're still sending in missiles, the threats of one

47:30 hundred and fifty thousand missiles yet to come. You know what's happening there. Well, first of all, the fact that Hesbela isn't sending in one hundred and fifty thousand missiles, which they have and by the way, which they got under US guarantees and under UN supervision. They weren't supposed to have this. In two thousand and six, Condoleeza Rice agreed to an augmented agreement. Regardless, it shows the failure of State Department and promises, shows the failure of the United Nations. Put that aside, right, The fact that they haven't launched their attack is because of Iran. If Israel were ever to strike at Iran's nuclear program, bill the retaliation would be through Hesbelah launching those one hundred and fifty thousand missiles. So if Hesbela goes ahead right now and launches those one hundred and fifty thousand missiles. What's the drawback to Israel striking directly at Iran? Exactly now? And this is where Iran is very, very frightened. And that's why for the time being at least Hesbelah isn't going to attack unless they see a chance of the United States and the United Nations imposing a ceasefire in Israel, then they may figure, you know, we can just get away with this exactly well, Michael, as always, we appreciate the time. Thank you so much for being with us that the information again is just absolutely invaluable, and you've become an invaluable a set to this radio show and to our audience. Thank you so much for being with us.

49:04 Doctor Michael Rubin, the Middle East Expert, the nineteen forty five contributing editor, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and former Pentagon official. Are thanks to doctor Michael Rubin, and thank you for being with us sharing a part of your day. For more information and how to how to get behind this movement to turn this nation toward God. Check it out Bill Martinez Show dot com. May God bless you and keep you May make his face shine upon you. May He be gracious unto you and give you peace. Thank you so much for being with us, God blessed. Take care,