June 30, 2025

Is It Too Late To Save Our Democracy?

Is It Too Late To Save Our Democracy?
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Season 2

Dan McMillan, J.D., Ph.D., the founder of Save Democracy in America, and author of "How Could This Happen?" delves into the connection between campaign finance and the persistence of elderly candidates. Contributing to the true threat on our Democracy is the need and primary goal for our elected officials to raise money for their next election. So what has contributed to this political paradigm that subordinates the will of the people to campaign finance? The constant need for campaign funds.

Bill Martinez Live is broadcast live Mondays at 3PM ET on W4CY Radio (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (www.talk4radio.com) on the Talk 4 Media Network (www.talk4media.com). Bill Martinez is viewed on Talk 4 TV (www.talk4tv.com).

Bill Martinez Live Podcast is also available on https://www.billmartinezshow.com,  Talk 4 Media (www.talk4media.com), Talk 4 Podcasting (www.talk4podcasting.com), iHeartRadio, Amazon Music, Pandora, Spotify, Audible, and over 100 other podcast outlets.

Transcript
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The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are

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solely those of the hosts and their guests, and not

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those of W FOURCY Radio. It's employees are affiliates. We

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make no recommendations or endorsements for radio show programs, services,

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or products mentioned on air or on our web. No liability,

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explicit or implied shall be extended to W four c

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Y Radio or it's employees are affiliates. Any questions or

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comments should be directed to those show hosts. Thank you

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for choosing W four c Y Radio.

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Well you've heard it said that, you know, words matter

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and names matter, like democracy, And it would appear that

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ever since our democratic idea came into being, there's been

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these antithical forces to undermine and knock it down. People

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have said, well, this doesn't make sense, it's never been

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done before, how can how can this happen? But yet

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here we are, almost at two hundred and fifty years,

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and this democratic republic keeps on marching about in spite

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of antithical forces suggesting that, you know, we're going to

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lose this democracy. And you know, sometimes I wonder if

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they even understand what democracy is all about. Doctor Dan

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McMillan is going to be joining us in just a moment.

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He's the author of the book How Could This Happen,

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which was about the Holocaust. We may touch on that,

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but more importantly, what we want to talk about is

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the group that he leads, which is Save Democracy in America.

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It's a non partisan campaign to put the American people

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back in charge by making voters the donors who fund

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election campaigns now. Dan earned a PhD in German history

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from Columbia University as well as a law degree. He's

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taught college level history and prosecuted criminal cases at the

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Brooklyn DA's office. I want to bring Dan on right now.

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Dan McMillan, welcome the show. Good to have you with us, sir.

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Be with you. Bill.

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Well, our democracy has quite the history, and you know

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today you wonder with some of these kids talking about

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how our democracy is coming under threat, and I say kids,

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there's politicians as well, and it's almost like going to

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hit the pause button. Say, would you explain to me

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what you mean by democracy? Is that a fair question?

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Well, I think there's some confusion out there, and I

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think especially the folks in Washington, I think are very

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confused about it. In fact, I think they've kind of

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forgotten what it is. And to me, it's what Lincoln

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said at Gettysburg. Government of the people, by the people,

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for the people, and the government is really no longer

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of us or by us, because long ago the people

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stop being the true constituents of our elected representatives, especially

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at the national level, they're donors. The people who pay

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for the stratospherically high cost of their election campaigns are

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their true constituents. That's who they listen to. And we

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the people have become a nuisance. I mean, we're a

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necessary evil because they still need our votes to get

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into office. That makes us necessary. But we're an evil

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because ultimately it's the donors they have to answer to,

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and then they just have to figure out what slogans

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to offer us or ugly personal attacks on their opponents

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to get them to fifty one percent. So and for

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that reason, also, we're not really getting government for the

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people either. Ultimately, now we're getting government that kind of

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isn't really working for anyone because in order to raise

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the kind of cash that you need to run for office,

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and you know, the minimum price to the Senate has

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to be at least ten million for a campaign, and

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we're seeing campaigns north of one hundred million now is

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not at all in common. A cool billion or more

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for the White House seems to be the minimum. And

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to raise that money, you basically have to take money

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from everyone. It's not enough just to take money from

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if you're in the House, to take money from the

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top industry in your district. You've got to take money

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from every single special and just out there who will

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throw it at you. And what that means is you

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sense yourself to avoid offending any of these special interests,

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and the end result is that both parties are kind

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of blocked from offering a real positive program. There's no

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way forward. I guess the most dramatic example of how

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the system has broken down because of this is that

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we're looking at we're staring down federal budget deficits a

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two and a half even three trillion dollars as far

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as the eye can see, and we're already getting to

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a point where all this public borrowing is going to

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start crowding up private borrowing, driving up interest rates. A

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lot of foreign borrowers who have been buying American public

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debt are now saying maybe We're not a good credit

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risks after all. Another example, of course, is the cost

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of healthcare and how difficult it is to add access it.

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We pay twice as much per healthcare per American per

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capita as in many other wealthy societies that were getting

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terrible results. But you can't you can't even talk about

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how we're going to fix that without if you have

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to kowtow to the lobbyists for pharma, for health insurance

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companies and saw on. Anyway, I'm taken too long to

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get to the point, but I think the thing is,

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what I'm saying is that the desperate hunger for this

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campaign cash you can paralyze the system, and long ago,

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decades ago, already it excluded us, the American people, from

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the process.

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Okay, I want to get into that, but before we do,

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let's go back. Even in terms of people who are

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put up, you know, that are running for office. These

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have been predetermined, They've been already, you know, whether it's

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the party or other interests, other money, people who have

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determined who we're going to vote for. You know, what

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choices do we have?

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Then? Yes, and that's a very good way of putting it.

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Bill and now It's not so much that I think

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groups of donors get together and pick candidates, but the way,

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by default, in effect, the donors do choose the candidates

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that we're allowed to vote for, and set and set

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limits to what the candidates can say, because you know,

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if you're going to be even taken seriously by the media,

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if your campaign's going to be viable, then the year

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before the election year, you already have to have raised

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an enormous sum. If you're running for the House, it's

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got to be I think at least a half a million.

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In the Senate, you're talking several million dollars and so on.

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And if your idea, if you or your ideas are

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unattractive to deep pocket of donors or even uninteresting, you

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don't draw their money, and your ideas and your candidacy

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die out, out of sight and out of mind. And

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so you've got this Darwinian process where only candidates that

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are attractive to donors come to the surface, and those

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are the candidates we're allowed to vote for.

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So even having some other ideas that are you know,

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that need to be represented and discussed, are marginalized right

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from the get go. They're scrutinized, so they're not even

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part of the national debate. If it's a federal candidate,

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even on a local level or a state level, that

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that bit of the conversation is limited because they've hand

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selected or they've already predetermined. Quote is that we're going

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to vote for so Dan, you know, you talked about

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this shift, this paradigm shift that occurred. What happened. Let's

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go back historically and remind the people of what happened.

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What opened up the door to big money coming in

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and controlling our elections.

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Probably the pivotal event was a Supreme Court case in

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nineteen seventy six called Buckley v. Valeo, and that was

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the Buckley Vivaleo is the parent case of Citizens United

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and many other cases that we hear about. Citizens United

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is an important one, but it all goes back to

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Buckley and what happened to Buckley. It was a crucial

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shift in that case. These seven justices decided that money

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spent to purchase influence in government by helping candidates, that

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this money is itself free speech. Up till that point,

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free speech was just what you and I are doing,

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and what free speech means kind of in every pretty

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much in every other country on earth. That is, free

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people get together and express their ideas without fear of

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any kind of punishment or coercion for expressing the ideas.

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It didn't include the money you might spend to purchase

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an audience for your speech. And more directly to the point,

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these days, if you have enormous amounts of money, you

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can drown out the speech of ordinary citizens like you

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and myself. And so that shift it crippled that ruling

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in Buckley Byoboleo, they struck down parts of the Federal

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Election Campaign Act of nineteen seventy four, which was a

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great finance law regulation. And I guess another development was

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that toward the end of the seventies, the party organizations

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ceased to be the chief vehicle through which candidates reached

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the voters. They used to be mass organizations at the

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local level and were replaced instead of by expensive media

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buys by TV ads That made campaigns more expensive, and that,

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between that and Buckley v. Balo, perhaps a couple of

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other factors, by the end of the seventies, the arms

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race in campaigns between the parties in fundraising and spending

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took off, and the cost of campaigns has risen much

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faster than inflation ever since Citizens United opened the floodgates.

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Together with another decision was a decision by these Court

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of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. Speech now

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made possible to super pack, which is a political committee

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that nominally is independent of campaigns, but in fact does

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core need extensively with the campaigns. They helped that the

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non coordination is a fiction. It was required by the

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court decision, but the rules determining coornation or a joke.

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And basically a super pac can take donations of unlimited

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size and spend unlimited amounts of money to help a

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candidate they like or hurt the candidate's opponent. And you

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can mean if if well. Elon Musk, for example, spent

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close to three hundred million dollars last fall helping President Trump.

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There was also also an enormous super pac spending, for example,

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I think by George Soros and billionaires in the Democrat side.

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This problem is one hundred percent by partisan both parties.

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Amazing use of super PACs.

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Is there unintended consequences here? Dan? When this was first

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addressed by the court, was there some positive benefit to

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consider when they were looking at citizens United.

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I don't I don't see how I think that What

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they did is that the justices on the Court under

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John Roberts decided that they wanted to apply this principle

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that money is speech to kind of the most rigorous

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way possible, and they thought that they were striking a

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blow for the freedom of speech. And I guess in

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some sense they did could make possible complete freedom of

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speech for special interests or corporations, for billionaires, but at

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the expense of everyone else's speech, which was not hurt

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at all.

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Yeah, well, you would have thought, again, in terms of

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doing no harm, that the courts would have looked at

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this to say, what is this going to do to

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the voter politic? And basically they needcap the voter politic?

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Did they not?

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You know? Completely? And I have to tell you, well,

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I have no insight into the motivations of our Supreme

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Court justices. But you look at a decision, you know,

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it's one thing to have made the decision of Buckley,

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which I thought was really already a pretty clearly dumb idea.

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To me, it's one of my favorite examples of the

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triumph of book learning over common sense. I mean, you

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need the handicap of a law degree for that to

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make sense to you, right, I mean, I don't think

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you could go into any bar in the country at

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any hour and find seven, you know, normal people in

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whatever state of ineberiation and get them to buy into

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the idea that money equals speech. But there it goes.

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At least in the Buckley decision, they had no way

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to foresee only I think it was Lewis Powell wrote

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the dissent and said this is going to cause problems.

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But by twenty ten, by Citizens United, it was obvious

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that money had done terrible damage to our democracy. Why

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that did not bother the justices? Well, I don't know

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them personally. I'm not a mind reader. It's, you know,

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it almost enough to make you think that they are

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hostile to government by the people. And as judges who

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have life tenure on the court, they're accustomed to having

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an enormous out of power in our political system and

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not being accountable. And maybe they think it's better that

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the people have less power and that people in Washington

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are less and less accountable because the people can't be trusted.

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There's a lot of that are politics. There are a

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lot of people in Washington, I think, on both sides

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of the isle, who think that the American people cannot

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be trusted in some ways. I almost feel that that's

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you know, I want to be quite a nonpartisan. But

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on the Democratic side, when I think about Hillary Clinton's

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Basket of deplorable's remarks or Joe Biden's Independence Fall speech

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saying maga Republicans are a threat to democracy, and asked

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the next day, well, who's a maga Republican? And he said,

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anyone who doesn't accept the result of a legitimate election,

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namely the election of twenty twenty. And yes, tens of

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millions of Republican voters think or fear or suspect that

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the twenty twenty election wasn't on the level. But that

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does not mean that they don't want free elections. They

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do want free elections exactly.

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And what's the problem. I mean, you got over sixty percent. Then,

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even to this day, Democrats and Republicans that question the

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result of the twenty twenty election, it's never been adjudicated.

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It's handled, you know, by the media that just says, oh,

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you don't believe that, Well, if you don't believe that,

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then you know, you're some sort of neanderthal.

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Well, you know, I think it actually has been a

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I think there were various you know, because there were

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a lot of lawsuits at the time that the courts

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all throughout. But you know, my perspective on that at

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this point is that I almost don't even care whether

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there was fraudulent voting, whether there was tampering or not.

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What I care about is that tens of millions of

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my fellow Americans think that there was, or fear that

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there was. And what's so striking to me is that

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neither party in Washington has made any effort to address

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this fear. Because the fact that this many Americans have

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this level of mistrust in our elections is itself a

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constitutional crisis, and it shows to me how little respect

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people in the system on both sides of the isle

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have for us. Because if you really believe in government

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by the people, then anything that's important to the people,

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if the people have this fear a concern that that

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is this important, Even if you feel the fear is groundless,

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you make it your business to address that fear, because

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anything that the people care about is by definition important

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because the people should be king in our system exact

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And if I had been, if I had been Nancy

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Pelosi or Kevin McCarthy or Schumer or McConnell on January seventh,

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my first order of business I would have gotten with

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the other three and I would have said, look, the

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American people. Americans don't trust, you know, the elections. What

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we need to do is, first we need a commission,

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say like the nine to eleven mission staff, and we

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have to staff it be led by people that literally

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everyone in the country trusts. And in our polarized environment,

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finding a bunch of people that everyone trusts, I don't know,

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maybe would be headed up by Tom Hanks or something

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like that, you know, but whoever, you.

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Know, maybe yeah, maybe not, but still you're investigate it,

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right and just like follow all the leads so the people.

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And the other thing to do is I think that

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both parties could come together and do a grand bargain,

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a bipartisan campaign bill. Republicans are more concerned about election security,

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Democrats want easier access to the ballot. My feeling is,

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you know, no American citizens should have to jump through

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hoops to exercise this fundamental right. And on the other hand, no,

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Americans should have to fear that anyone not entitled to

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vote as voting And why won't they do that, because frankly,

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both parties would rather milk this issue for anger, you know,

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to to juice their base to fire and to get

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their small daughter donations, then they would to actually address

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this issue. And that, to me, that's such a lack

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of respect to the American people. It's a powerful symptom

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of what has happened to democracy in the land of

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its birth.

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They do this at their own expense then, because what

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happened is the issue is trust. If I don't trust you,

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I don't care if you're a Republican or Democrat. If

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I don't trust you, we got a problem we can't communicate.

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And this is what it's come down to, is that

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you've got, like I said, over sixty percent of the

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people saying I don't trust a number, you know. And

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then you say, well, it's been adjudicated. Yes, there's been

308
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over sixty maybe seventy different court cases. But then on technicality,

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I mean, there's been some wins out of it, and

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there's things that are coming out, you know, slowly but surely,

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because that's the process that we go through where you

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find out that oh yeah, okay, we had people that

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were dead voting and it wasn't just one or two.

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They are sizeable numbers, these numbers that are coming out

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right now, and even an error in Atlanta, in Georgia

316
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where Rothensberger was so protective about all this stuff, but

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he had no sense, there was no sense of earnestness

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about hey looking into this. It was just hey, you know,

319
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you're questioning me and your you know. And he took

320
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it personally as opposed to as you're saying and suggesting.

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And I agree with you that you've got to be

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able to stand back, you know, from this and say,

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all right, I've got to you know, if the issue

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is the consent of the government, I've got to respond

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to that, because that is a constitutional predicate. If if

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there is no longer consent of the govern and it's

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compromises something that you manufactured, well, then that's the constitutional

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crisis in and of itself, is it not?

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It is. I mean to reaffirm, of course, my non

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partisan stance or other bipartisan stance, because I feel that

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I take the side of all Americans on both sides

332
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of the Aisle. I'm not going to express an opinion

333
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on whether or not the election was fair, but the

334
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fact that neither no one in either party has attempted

335
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to really address that fear on the part of so

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many Americans that speaks volumes about how little they respect us.

337
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Well, it's an issue for ourselves, how little do we

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respect the Constitution. We have to understand that integrity is

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key to the validity of our constitution. If it gets compromised,

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the foundation falls on itself. And you know, I mean

341
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here we are, almost seventy years later, we still can't

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00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:35.960
figure out who killed JFK. And I know these are

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conspiratorial issues, and I'm not trying to get you to

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go down some rabbit hole here, but there's a lot

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of questions here and doubts that should been solved, should

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have been especially you know, when you think about the

347
00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:51.200
millions of dollars that were spent investigating you know, JFK.

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We avoided, to your point, investigating what happened in the

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twenty twenty election. We spend a lot of money, millions

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of dollars, investigating, adjudicating, and putting in prison hundreds hundreds

351
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of patriots who just you know, came to d C

352
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and said he got a problem, you know, and how

353
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is that unconstitutional? I'm not talking about the people that

354
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broke windows and did damage. I get that, although you know,

355
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that's in contrast to the people who what six months earlier,

356
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came to d C and destroyed property. And I didn't

357
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hear about anybody going to jail for an endless amount

358
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:32.960
of time, you know, from Black Lives Matter or Antifa

359
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during that period of time. So again, relevant to our

360
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constitution and what's fair and right and just there just

361
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seems to be this discrepancy and these these emotions and

362
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questions are hanging in the balance, and it puts it

363
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to me that's a threat to our democracy. You know.

364
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Again, I'm not going to offer an opinion on January

365
00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:57.680
sixth because of my stance, but I think what we

366
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need to focus on is how do we put the

367
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American peaceeople back in charge? Amen, I'm with you, because

368
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that's what we have to do. And maybe I can

369
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say a little bit about my effort and about voter dollars,

370
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because I think that's kind of germane at this point,

371
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So please.

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Go go ahead. I'm sorry, you know, I no, no, No,

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we're just.

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We're following the flow. We're going with the flow, and

375
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I think we're covering a lot of important things and

376
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:22.160
this is really the issue. So I lead this effort.

377
00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:25.720
My goal is to put the American people in charge

378
00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:29.880
by making us the donors who pay for these election campaigns.

379
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As I was saying earlier, these election campaigns are fabulously expensive,

380
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and thanks to the Supreme Court, we can't place any

381
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limit on the cost of elections the way they do

382
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in every other wealthy democracy, because the Court decided in

383
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its infinite wisdom that money is itself speech. Okay, that's

384
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the hand we're dealt. But what we can do in

385
00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:53.920
response is to make ourselves the donors. And the way

386
00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:56.799
we do that is a system that I call voter dollars.

387
00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:00.759
It has also been called democracy dollars democracy vouchers, but

388
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:05.319
it's been used in Seattle for city elections since twenty seventeen.

389
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I don't like the implementation because they used paper vouchers

390
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:13.079
rather than a rather than online accounts. But the way

391
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:15.920
it would work is that when you register to vote,

392
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you get an online account and a single national website,

393
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:24.039
and for every two year cycle federal election cycle, you

394
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:28.079
get an allotment of campaign cash one hundred dollars per

395
00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:30.640
voter in a presidential year, of fifty dollars per voter

396
00:22:30.720 --> 00:22:33.400
in the midterms, which are cheaper. You can't take the

397
00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:35.440
money out and spend it, but you go online and

398
00:22:35.480 --> 00:22:38.720
you direct that money to the candidates you support, so

399
00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:41.880
you know, you'd log onto your account, and you know

400
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that the races that you're in which you can vote

401
00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:48.240
for and contribute money to come up for the for

402
00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:51.000
your House district, if there's a Senate race in your

403
00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:53.240
state that year, and of course in a presidential year

404
00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:56.079
for the White House, and there'll be a pocket, you know,

405
00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:00.440
pockets for the primary and for the general, and anytime

406
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:03.599
day or night when you access the internet, you can

407
00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:06.559
send that money. It's much easier than the actual active voting.

408
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:09.319
You don't have to go to a physical place. And

409
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if we fund the system at the robust level that

410
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:15.920
I'm calling for, then candidates who want to serve us

411
00:23:16.359 --> 00:23:18.759
can get enough money from us from the voters to

412
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run a strong campaign and their opponent no longer has

413
00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:26.440
an excuse for taking money from George Soros or Elon Musk,

414
00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:28.400
big oil, big pharma. You need it.

415
00:23:28.920 --> 00:23:30.559
You got to find a way to cut that off,

416
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:34.160
that outside money, that particularly in these local races, when

417
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:38.799
you've got people that aren't locally involved having such grave

418
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:41.880
influence in these local elections.

419
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:45.039
Yes, and particularly service of many of the smaller states

420
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:47.759
and swing states, you have huge amounts of out of

421
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.640
state spending. Now, unfortunately the Supreme Court won't let us

422
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.960
at this point cut off this outside spending. And so

423
00:23:55.039 --> 00:23:57.960
people have said to me, well, then want the billionaires

424
00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:00.839
just swamp your voter dollar system with the even more money.

425
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:03.799
But I have two answers to that. One is that

426
00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.359
Jeff Bezos tried to do exactly that in Seattle in

427
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:11.160
twenty eighteen. He and his cronies decided they wanted to

428
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:14.039
I think stop it was a surcharge on the property tax.

429
00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:18.039
They wanted a city council that was more, more pliant,

430
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:21.599
and so they invested an unprecedented million and a half

431
00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:25.160
and seven city council races. And because the voters of

432
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:28.799
Seattle had been well educated to the role of money

433
00:24:28.839 --> 00:24:32.640
in politics and to how their democracy vouchers were part

434
00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:35.400
of their influence and say in how they were governed,

435
00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:39.440
it completely backfired, and the press, the media were outraged,

436
00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:42.480
that people were outraged, and the Bezos candidates went down

437
00:24:42.519 --> 00:24:46.240
to defeat. Now, this reform that I'm talking for talking about,

438
00:24:46.359 --> 00:24:49.319
it's not going to come from Washington because everyone they're

439
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:51.400
there are two dependent on their donors. They can no

440
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:54.279
longer They are not going to lead on this. But

441
00:24:54.839 --> 00:24:58.559
when we get the really big ground swell of you

442
00:24:58.759 --> 00:25:02.119
and cross you know, Americans, left right and center, which

443
00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:06.119
for this reform to make it happen, the American people

444
00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:10.119
will understand. And when they end any candidate that takes

445
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.279
that benefits from that kind of outside spending, or takes

446
00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:16.240
money from corporate interests or other or unions, any other

447
00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:19.240
special interest, the people are going to punish those candidates

448
00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:22.960
at the polls. And also once we get once we

449
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:25.559
get a voter dollar system and have built that political

450
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:30.480
strength and institutionalize that, then we can take the final step,

451
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:34.480
which is a campaign finance constitutional amendment that will effectively

452
00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:37.319
overturn but leave e Balo and all these other cases

453
00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:41.079
and make possible us to make up make it possible

454
00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:43.279
to limit spending, and then we can actually lower the

455
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:46.079
cost of elections, and then the voter dollar system will

456
00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:48.400
cost less money because you won't need as much money

457
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:51.039
to run a campaign. But that's down the road.

458
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:54.400
Dan, what do you say? People might say, well, look

459
00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:57.799
at there's always the argument about voter ide. Eighty percent

460
00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:01.599
of America says they want vote or id you do

461
00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:04.440
something like this, and they say, well, there's and of

462
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:07.480
course the argument is, well, people can't access it's a

463
00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:11.000
problematic they don't, you know, I mean, it's it's to me,

464
00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:13.480
it's a bit of a silly argument, but that's just me.

465
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:16.559
You do this and you you give this money out,

466
00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:18.720
and some people might say, well, what about poor people,

467
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:21.559
how are they going to access? Everybody across the board

468
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:23.839
gets fifty they get a hundred bucks and it comes

469
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:25.599
from you know, from the treasury.

470
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:28.160
Yes, I mean it's it's part of the federal budget.

471
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:32.599
So but as far as well, I guess people who

472
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:36.359
don't own a computer or a smartphone would would you know,

473
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:39.200
if you can't access online, then that's that can be

474
00:26:39.240 --> 00:26:42.200
a problem for them. But we can have just make

475
00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:45.279
sure that there's a certain number of public computers in

476
00:26:45.319 --> 00:26:48.200
public libraries or in police stations where have you, that

477
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.160
people can go to. We might also have a system

478
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:54.680
of paper vouchers as an alternative for people who don't

479
00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:58.640
have a computer or who don't like computers, as far

480
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:01.559
as you know, as far as is given the concern

481
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:07.400
about who is voting and whether everyone who's voting is

482
00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:10.880
entitled to you talked about voter ID. I think that

483
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:14.039
a voter ID law is fine as long as there's

484
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:18.119
flexibility on the documentation that you need to produce in

485
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:22.880
order to get identification, and as long as and I

486
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:26.559
think the government should provide this ID for free, so

487
00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:29.519
that you don't have to have any money to exercise

488
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:31.960
this basic right. There's a lot to be said for

489
00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:35.759
a national ID card as they have in I think

490
00:27:35.799 --> 00:27:39.319
most other wealthy countries, that has all kinds of security

491
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:42.359
features so that it cannot possibly be forged. That could

492
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:45.480
also help with the enforcement of our immigration laws, for example.

493
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:47.160
So there's a lot that can be done there. I

494
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:49.759
think that issue that's an implementation issue that can be addressed.

495
00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:52.680
I would like to address because you said federal treasury.

496
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:55.799
So one of the most frequent objection I get is,

497
00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:59.960
wait a minute, my tax dollar is going for foodstad

498
00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:02.799
as for politicians. I don't want to give these buns

499
00:28:02.839 --> 00:28:05.240
any money. And I think I should respond to that,

500
00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:09.480
And one first response is is a practical matter there.

501
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.640
These campaigns are very expensive. Candidates are going to get

502
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.440
this money from somewhere. If they don't get it from us,

503
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:17.680
they're going to keep getting it from the special interests

504
00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:19.920
they have right now, and we the people are still

505
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:22.279
going to be out in the cold. My second response

506
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:25.880
is this reform will pay for itself dozens of times

507
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:30.960
over in wasteful spending that lobbyists extract from Congress. Because

508
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:35.519
the lobbyists and their clients donate to campaigns. Suddenly Congress

509
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:37.799
can tell these lobbyists to take a hike because the

510
00:28:37.839 --> 00:28:40.759
Congress is getting its money from the voters and is

511
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:43.920
answering only to us. We're all kinds of wasteful spending.

512
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:49.880
Tax deductions for corporations that aren'tic have no economic value.

513
00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:53.160
It would take us actually a long way toward balancing

514
00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:55.880
the budget, which we need to do. So those are

515
00:28:55.960 --> 00:28:58.079
those are my two responses, And thank you for bringing

516
00:28:58.079 --> 00:28:58.400
that up.

517
00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:01.759
Well. To me, it's always been about who you're beholden to.

518
00:29:02.599 --> 00:29:05.000
You know, you and I had this discussion before you

519
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:08.039
know today, and that is that when you get elected,

520
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:13.079
during your orientation, uh, you know, they'll ask these politicians,

521
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:16.000
you know these freshly you know these freshmen coming into

522
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:18.880
office and say, okay, what what are you going to do? Well,

523
00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:21.519
you know, I'm fighting for this cause, for my constituent.

524
00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:23.640
That's the most important thing I can do. And they

525
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:27.480
go bad, bad answer. You know your number one job.

526
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:31.119
Your job, Your job is to raise enough money for

527
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:31.960
the next campaign.

528
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:35.480
And guess what that starts as soon as this meeting

529
00:29:35.559 --> 00:29:37.839
is over. So as soon as this meeting is over,

530
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:40.440
you go work the phones, right, you work.

531
00:29:40.279 --> 00:29:44.480
At both parties have both parties have call centers set

532
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:47.720
up from what within walking distance of the capital with

533
00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:51.079
and you go into a cubicle like in a customer

534
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:55.920
service floor of any company, and there's for specifically for

535
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:59.000
you in your district is a whole list of donors.

536
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:01.079
And I think maybe the a little bit of personal

537
00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:03.680
information for each about each donors so that when you

538
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:06.599
call them up you can say, you know, say Biff,

539
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:08.920
you know, how is Buffy enjoying the bar, you know,

540
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:12.559
the garden Club? And how is Biff Junior liking Princeton?

541
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:15.200
And you know, I depend on you for your leadership

542
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:17.720
and support and can you help me out with you

543
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:23.039
know five thousand dollars for my re election. A Republican congressman,

544
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:25.880
God bless him, David Jolly from Florida. I think he

545
00:30:25.960 --> 00:30:28.359
only stayed there one term because he was so disgusted

546
00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:31.079
and in twenty sixteen, so we're douking nine years ago,

547
00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:34.079
he blew the whistle on this. He said that the

548
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.680
typical member of Congress was spending thirty hours a week

549
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:41.759
in DC dialing for they called it dialing for dollars, right,

550
00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:45.400
instead of instead of doing the people's business. And of course,

551
00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:50.160
since the cost of elections has skyrocketed across the last

552
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:53.799
four cycles, that they have to be spending a lot

553
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:56.799
more than just thirty hours today, one has to assume.

554
00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:02.759
So it's really the most important skill that any politician

555
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:06.079
needs to have if you want to go into national politics.

556
00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:09.920
Is fundraising, is begging for money, and you have to

557
00:31:09.960 --> 00:31:13.599
ask yourself, does anyone become a leader that way? And

558
00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:16.599
I think that's also one of the reasons why insident

559
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:20.440
in the presidential races. So many of the candidates are

560
00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:24.839
just so lacking in leadership qualities, lacking in convictions and courage,

561
00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:29.880
lacking in good ideas. It's very destructive. But on the

562
00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:33.079
other hand, I think the good news in all of

563
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:36.079
this that we got to remember is this money driven

564
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:40.839
system has over time, it is it has caused our

565
00:31:41.559 --> 00:31:46.440
so called elected, our representatives, to unlearned democracy, to forget

566
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:49.920
about the people, to lose respect for us, to not

567
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:52.279
listen to us. But for the rest of us, for

568
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:56.400
normal people. Politics is only a tiny sliver of our lives.

569
00:31:57.119 --> 00:32:00.400
And the American people have not forgotten that. I'm America

570
00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:04.960
stands for freedom for government by the people. The American

571
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:08.079
people very much. We want our rifles saying how we

572
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:11.279
are governed. We believe in democracy, and if we can

573
00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:13.880
just put the people back in charge, the system's going

574
00:32:13.960 --> 00:32:16.119
to work very well. Again. I mean, you've got to remember,

575
00:32:16.640 --> 00:32:19.640
I'm speaking in my capacity as an historian. I mean,

576
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:21.720
the Smfield was German history. But I look at our

577
00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:24.400
history and you think about the early thirties to the

578
00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:28.839
early sixties before presidents lying to us about Vietnam did

579
00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:32.480
so much damage to our democracy. But in that period

580
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:35.079
we elect a string of five presidents that are are

581
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:41.680
very good, are downright great, you know, Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower, JFK.

582
00:32:42.279 --> 00:32:45.319
Lynna Johnson was a good president. On the domestic front,

583
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:50.079
gave us Medicare, medicaid, civil rights. He ruined his presidency

584
00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:53.559
with Vietnam. But at home and during those years, this

585
00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:57.240
country was unstoppable. I mean, think about it. But because

586
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:01.880
the American people were in charge. You know, we reinvent

587
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:06.599
our government to survive the Great Depression, We invent you know,

588
00:33:06.599 --> 00:33:10.839
we rescue people from destitution with social Security invented in

589
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:14.440
you know, nineteen thirty five. We defeat Tranny unto continents

590
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:18.759
in World War Two. We rescue Western Europe from economic

591
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:22.160
chaos and communism with the Marshall Plan, the greatest act

592
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:25.559
of generosity of any country in history. We lead the

593
00:33:25.559 --> 00:33:28.799
way in founding NATO. And in the sixties we rally

594
00:33:28.839 --> 00:33:32.680
to doctor King and to Presidents Kennedy and Johnson, and

595
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:35.240
we end segregation and black people get the vote back.

596
00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:37.599
And in nineteen sixty five, with the Voting Rights Act,

597
00:33:37.960 --> 00:33:41.799
our country became the world's first and only multi racial democracy,

598
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:46.400
which is a stunning achievement. And you just so, I

599
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:49.960
guess the point is democracy works when the American people

600
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:53.559
are in charge. This country can do amazing things. And

601
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:56.880
I think we will do amazing things again. And voter

602
00:33:56.960 --> 00:33:59.799
dollars is not a magic wand but we don't need

603
00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:02.480
to fix everything this year and next. What we need

604
00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:07.480
is a shared goal, a concrete rallying point that's achievable

605
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:11.400
that Republicans and Democrats can rally to, can can join

606
00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:17.639
hands together to take back, to take to restore the republic.

607
00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:19.719
Something that's going to take us out of the political

608
00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:25.920
realm because politics has gotten so mean and ugly that

609
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:30.960
we've lost sight of the greater American idea. And that's

610
00:34:31.079 --> 00:34:33.360
what I'm hearing you say, and I agree with you.

611
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:35.360
I think that there were certain things along the way.

612
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:39.280
You mentioned FDR and LBJ as well. I think that

613
00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:44.639
part of the unfortunate thing with LBJ, as history is

614
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:48.000
is showing us, is that there was manipulation there. It

615
00:34:48.039 --> 00:34:51.239
was it was politically driven some of that stuff that

616
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:53.880
he came up with, you know, as he as he

617
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:58.320
told somebody in one of his constituents that you know,

618
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:00.920
if they passed the bill, they would have blacks voting

619
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:03.719
for them for the next hundred years. Well, you know,

620
00:35:03.800 --> 00:35:06.159
and when you look at the result of what happened

621
00:35:06.679 --> 00:35:10.719
in in the mid sixties with you know, some of

622
00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:13.639
these things that he put into play here. It didn't

623
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.400
elevate black people. I mean even Bob Woodson you know,

624
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:20.119
looks back historically and said, you know, blacks were much wealthier,

625
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.000
they were happier, the marriages were hanging together, there was

626
00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:26.400
less fatherlessness. I think it was you know, single digit

627
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:29.960
that was in the black community. And as soon as

628
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:35.159
you know, Johnson comes in and passes, uh, you know,

629
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:38.760
passes the bill and has the influence on the black community,

630
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:42.400
all of a sudden, you got this dramatic increase of

631
00:35:43.119 --> 00:35:48.960
you know, fatherlessness amongst the black black communities. And in

632
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:50.800
some of it, you know, I say, you know, you

633
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:55.599
get these unintentional consequences I referenced earlier, Dan, And you

634
00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:58.000
know the challenge we have with the bureaucracy is once

635
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:01.559
something is in it's very rare that they can go

636
00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:03.840
back and say, hey, look at let's adjust you know,

637
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:06.280
I think a good idea at the beginning, but the

638
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:08.440
way it's being implemented, you know, just like you talked

639
00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:12.880
about with you know, with Citizens United, what was the

640
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:15.320
good things about it? What what was it that could

641
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:18.159
be derived that would be would have been helpful and

642
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:22.400
uh and what what adjustments If it's worthwhile to make adjustments.

643
00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:24.360
You just say, you know what, that was a bad

644
00:36:24.400 --> 00:36:26.800
idea at the time, it's even a worse idea now,

645
00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:28.960
and let's let's eradicate it.

646
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:30.599
Well, you know, it'd be great to get rid of

647
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:34.760
Citizens United, but there are only two ways to get

648
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:38.480
rid of a Supreme Court decision about the constitutionality of laws.

649
00:36:38.679 --> 00:36:41.880
One is for the Court to reverse itself, which is

650
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:44.320
not happening. I think that's clear that the Court's not

651
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:48.480
going anywhere, that the majority that supported that that decision

652
00:36:48.519 --> 00:36:50.880
is not going out of anywhere. The other way is

653
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:54.840
via constitutional amendment. And there is a very good organization

654
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:59.719
called American Promise that is promoting a campaign finance constitutional amendment,

655
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:03.320
and they built an admirable amount of support, But realistically

656
00:37:03.400 --> 00:37:07.920
it is so easy to block a constitutional amendment. My

657
00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:11.000
view is that until we got to get voter dollars first,

658
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:15.199
because that will defang the special interest that otherwise would

659
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:18.840
block this amendment. And I also think that voter dollars

660
00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:22.760
will reduce the polarization and part is an anger in

661
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:26.400
our politics because I think that first of all, because

662
00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:29.559
it's something that it's a great way for Americans to

663
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:34.480
come together and affirm the shared ideals that make us Americans.

664
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:37.800
Because it's ideals that make us Americans. Government by the

665
00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.480
people maybe the most important because we invented it in

666
00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:43.280
its modern form. And I think if Americans, if we

667
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:46.480
can come together and not such a big win for

668
00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:49.679
ourselves together, we're going to work together more effectively on

669
00:37:49.719 --> 00:37:52.000
everything we need to do. But anyway, I'm rambling a

670
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:53.159
little bit and I cut you well.

671
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:55.480
I think you bring up something your dan that triggers

672
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:58.719
the thought is that really, you know, like any organization,

673
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:02.679
people want to be hurt, you know, and particularly with

674
00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:07.159
this great American idea. I mean, as we said several times,

675
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:09.719
a government of four buy and we the people. I

676
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:14.119
mean that statement in and of itself is quite the commandment.

677
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:17.119
I believe for the constituents that you cannot sit on

678
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:19.480
your couch, put your heels on the desk and just

679
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:23.119
think somehow you did your part because you voted. This

680
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:27.599
is the type of government that you need to activate.

681
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:30.599
I say, activate your citizenship. You've got to be involved.

682
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:33.079
I mean, how much time are you spending a week

683
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:36.440
or a month, even you know, calling your congressman, holding

684
00:38:36.440 --> 00:38:38.599
them in check, just saying hey, look at I'm watching

685
00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:41.199
you and this is what we have to do is

686
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:45.119
activate and if if doing it with donor dollars, begins

687
00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:48.519
to do that and the people have say again in

688
00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:52.239
their government, Wow, I mean, the sky's the limit, Dan,

689
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:54.960
I think you know the potest we have.

690
00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.000
So whether you see that, because and one of the

691
00:38:57.000 --> 00:38:59.360
things that we'll get, we get a lot of things

692
00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:02.400
with voter doar. We get better candidates who want to

693
00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:05.280
serve us, we get a political system that works, and

694
00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:09.239
we get better voters because now you have so much

695
00:39:09.239 --> 00:39:13.159
more reason to inform yourself and you feel empowered. One

696
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:14.800
of the things I think that is one of the

697
00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.440
political strengths of this reform and one of the ways

698
00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:21.400
that it benefits the country is the way that it

699
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:26.639
directly and sort of vividly, concretely empowers each one of us.

700
00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:30.360
Right now, so many Americans tune out politics because we

701
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:33.639
feel powerless. And that's not irrational because to a larger

702
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:36.880
ge we are powerless. But this way, we literally put

703
00:39:36.920 --> 00:39:40.079
the coin of political influence into your hands to do

704
00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:43.079
is U see fit? And candidates now come to you

705
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:45.719
not just for your vote, but for something they needed

706
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:48.320
a lot more urgently than the vote, which is the

707
00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:50.320
money because if they don't have the money, they can't

708
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:52.840
ask anyone for their vote. And I think it will

709
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:56.000
really put us in the driver's seat where we belong,

710
00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:58.400
as our founding fathers wanted for us when they wrote

711
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:02.079
our constitution. And I think that once again with the

712
00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:04.840
people in charge, I think there's no limit to what

713
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:08.639
this country can achieve because we have so many strengths.

714
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:11.599
One thing I would like to say also about the

715
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:16.360
ugliness in our politics, it's coming from the political level.

716
00:40:16.519 --> 00:40:20.159
It's coming because the money creates an incentive to divide

717
00:40:20.199 --> 00:40:24.320
and conquer, because not because they're beholden to their donors,

718
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:28.159
neither party is delivering for us on the basic economic

719
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:31.199
needs that we all have. And so what they do

720
00:40:31.639 --> 00:40:34.559
is they play upon our prejudices to turn us against

721
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:39.280
each other, to distract us from our failures. And the

722
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:43.199
thing is that, but below the toxic level of politics,

723
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:47.239
we actually are less divided by our prejudices than we

724
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:49.280
have ever been. I mean, you think just about racial

725
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:53.400
prejudice today versus sixty years ago. I'm not saying, look,

726
00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:55.199
we still have a ways to go, and I'm not

727
00:40:55.239 --> 00:40:58.559
saying there still is not prejudice and everyone has prejudices.

728
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:01.679
There's not just prejudice by rays, by class or religion.

729
00:41:02.119 --> 00:41:05.719
Of course, we're human. Human beings have prejudices, but we

730
00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:08.760
are actually below the toxic level of politics in our

731
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:12.000
communities and our workplaces, in our schools. We are more

732
00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:14.079
open to each other. We are more fair to each other,

733
00:41:14.119 --> 00:41:16.159
and we are more kind to each other than we

734
00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:19.639
have ever been. So the notion that we Americans cannot

735
00:41:19.639 --> 00:41:23.239
come together and you know, put our heads together, roll

736
00:41:23.320 --> 00:41:26.559
up our sleeves, use our common sense and fix what's

737
00:41:26.599 --> 00:41:30.000
broken in the country is nonsense. The only thing that's

738
00:41:30.039 --> 00:41:32.719
holding us back and turning us against each other is

739
00:41:32.760 --> 00:41:36.119
this money driven politics. We fix that, I say, this

740
00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:37.519
country will be unstoppable.

741
00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:40.280
Yeah, I agree with you, Dan, because the thing is

742
00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:44.519
is that politics is out of order. What should happen

743
00:41:44.920 --> 00:41:49.760
is politics should be downstream culture. And something happened that

744
00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:54.639
shifted politics to where they became upstream culture. So politics

745
00:41:54.679 --> 00:41:57.800
is influencing culture, not the other way around. And that

746
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:02.119
I see as as cause an incredible amount of problem

747
00:42:02.199 --> 00:42:05.519
and friction among the people because, as you say, and

748
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:08.360
I think the donor dollars would contribute to this, because

749
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:11.320
we would have a say and when we're being manipulated

750
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:15.880
by these politicians. We're not going to take them, you know,

751
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:18.400
as gospel. We're going to say, well, I'm going to

752
00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:20.840
look into that. Or you know, that doesn't that that

753
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:25.199
doesn't square up because we're going to appreciate and honor

754
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:28.280
the culture above politics. And if we do that and

755
00:42:28.320 --> 00:42:32.440
we're honoring our neighbor more than a politician, I think

756
00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:35.400
you've got a different dynamic potentially that could occur here

757
00:42:35.559 --> 00:42:37.719
that it's win win for all. What do you think that.

758
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:40.559
You know, that's such an interesting and suggestive thought. I mean,

759
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:44.719
what you're saying about politics currently being upstream from culture,

760
00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:47.920
I guess the main the main way in which that

761
00:42:48.119 --> 00:42:50.559
resonates with me. And it may not be exactly the

762
00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:54.440
same kind of mechanism or thought process that you're thinking about,

763
00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:58.599
but what seems to me is that having a political

764
00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:02.280
system where the public fail of politics is always fake.

765
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:05.719
Where As Hillary Clinton notoriously said in one of our

766
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:10.960
overpaid Wall Street speeches, politicians have two positions in every issue.

767
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:13.559
That the private position for the donors which is what

768
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:16.440
they which is what matters, and the public position for

769
00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:21.119
the voters that's inherently corrupting and that, and that in turn,

770
00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:25.400
it's morally corrupting. It is part of what I think

771
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:30.239
has damaged the moral fiber of American society. And I

772
00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:34.000
think that when you have leaders, it prevents because the

773
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:36.360
problem is, you can go to Washington with the best

774
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:39.679
intentions and be a man or woman of integrity. But

775
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:41.840
if you have to play this game and raise money

776
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:43.719
and then turn around and try to buy off the

777
00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:46.719
voters with some empty slogans, which is what they do,

778
00:43:47.719 --> 00:43:51.360
it corrupts you. It ruins you, and it's not even

779
00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:54.159
their fault. I think one thing I always like to

780
00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:56.719
say is that I think this is not something that

781
00:43:56.840 --> 00:44:00.760
any of us chose. The donors and the and the

782
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:03.360
and the donors who give the money, the candidates who

783
00:44:03.400 --> 00:44:06.159
take it. I'm not saying that they that they haven't

784
00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:10.320
become corrupted or selfish, but ultimately they're doing what they

785
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:13.199
have to do. They're responding to the perverted incentives of

786
00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:16.400
this system. This has change the incentives. You start getting

787
00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:21.639
better behavior. And so I always like to say, you know, ultimately,

788
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.480
the real dividing line in this country is not between

789
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:27.840
Republicans and Democrats. It's between the American people as a

790
00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:31.280
whole against a broken system. Of a broken system is

791
00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:34.119
the money. Our fellow Americans are not the enemy. The

792
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:35.119
money is the enemy.

793
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:40.079
Yeah, look at the results, and you know you're you know,

794
00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:43.960
you're an academic. You always look at the end to say, Okay,

795
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:46.199
what is the result that we're getting what we're putting

796
00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:49.400
into it, and uh, and this is this is what

797
00:44:49.440 --> 00:44:52.639
we're seeing. Quite clearly, I agree with you. The system

798
00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:56.480
is broken. It doesn't give our politicians, people that we

799
00:44:56.559 --> 00:44:59.440
want to represent us a fair chance to go and

800
00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:03.880
be success because we're putting them into a meat cleaver,

801
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:07.000
so to speak, a system that's already defined. They can

802
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:09.880
go in with their idealism and everything, and in a

803
00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:12.960
matter of weeks, if that long, they're chopped up like

804
00:45:13.039 --> 00:45:13.880
hamburger meat.

805
00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:16.320
I think they already get chopped up during when they're

806
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:19.840
running the campaign. And the other thing is you got

807
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:23.360
to ask yourself how many good people aren't going into politics?

808
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:26.599
Because you get people out there with great ideas and

809
00:45:26.679 --> 00:45:29.440
who've got the courage to lead, and then they go

810
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:32.840
talk to a campaign manager and the first question from

811
00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:35.920
the campaign manager is how much money can you raise?

812
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:36.639
Right?

813
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:39.840
Can are you a millionaire? Can you sell fund Do

814
00:45:39.880 --> 00:45:43.199
you have millionaire friends? Can we hold a fundraiser at

815
00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:46.119
your country club? And if the answer to those questions

816
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:48.840
is no, that campaign manager is going to say I'm

817
00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:50.840
not going to work with you, and you've got no chance.

818
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:54.119
So we're also missing out on all kinds of talent,

819
00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:56.159
right we could have in Washington.

820
00:45:56.360 --> 00:45:59.360
The other great thing look at, for example, Dan, I'm

821
00:45:59.360 --> 00:46:01.239
sorry to cut you all here because we've only got

822
00:46:01.239 --> 00:46:03.400
a couple of minutes left here, But look at Elon Musk.

823
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:04.639
Elon Musk is a talent.

824
00:46:05.079 --> 00:46:08.920
He's a very impressive guy. I personally don't like the

825
00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:12.920
idea of someone basically buying a kind of cabinet position

826
00:46:13.400 --> 00:46:16.159
to campaign donations, but he is a really impressive guy.

827
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:21.480
In any case, there's no shortage of really talented Americans

828
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:25.440
who are patriotic and of goodwill, who want to make

829
00:46:25.480 --> 00:46:28.320
the country stronger, who want to help each other Americans.

830
00:46:29.559 --> 00:46:32.159
One other thing about this voter dollars system is that

831
00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:35.639
because now, right now, in the present, if you want

832
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:38.320
to challenge an incumbent, even in the House of Representatives,

833
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:41.400
you almost have to be a millionaire with millionaire friends.

834
00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:45.239
But with voter dollars, we can get people in Congress

835
00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:48.920
from all walks of American society, so that all kinds

836
00:46:48.920 --> 00:46:51.239
of different points of view and we are represented, and

837
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:55.679
we can have primary care physicians and school principles or

838
00:46:55.800 --> 00:47:01.119
teachers or police officers who have you, you know, real

839
00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:05.039
estate agents anyway, people have all kinds of different so

840
00:47:05.079 --> 00:47:07.920
that we don't just have this rich person's view in Congress.

841
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:11.400
You're exactly right, Doctor Dan McMillan has been our guest.

842
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:14.880
He leads Save Democracy in America. It's a nonpartisan campaign

843
00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:17.519
to put the American people back in charge by making

844
00:47:17.639 --> 00:47:21.760
voters the donors who fund election campaigns. Dan, we got

845
00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:23.840
a minute left. I'm going to let you summarize and

846
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:25.239
bring us home if you would please.

847
00:47:25.280 --> 00:47:27.400
Okay, I think the thing I most want to say

848
00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:30.559
is that it's easy to be discouraged. But let's not

849
00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:35.159
forget that for every other people on earth, democracy is

850
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:38.400
an option. For us, it's existential because it defines us.

851
00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:42.119
It's who we are, right and no one does government

852
00:47:42.159 --> 00:47:45.440
by the people better than Americans, except when we are

853
00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:49.679
thwarted by factors beyond our control. But the thing is,

854
00:47:50.159 --> 00:47:53.760
we just have to remember this fight for voter dollars

855
00:47:53.800 --> 00:47:56.559
to take our country back may not be easy, but

856
00:47:56.599 --> 00:47:59.320
it is simple. All we really need to remember is

857
00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:01.559
who we are and what our country stands for.

858
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:04.199
Well, Dan McMillan, thank you so much for being with us.

859
00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:05.840
Appreciate the time, sir, you take care.

860
00:48:06.199 --> 00:48:07.360
Thank you very much, Bill.

861
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:13.199
Doctor Dan McMillan saved democracy in America. He's also the

862
00:48:13.239 --> 00:48:18.079
author of the book How Could This Happen? Explaining the Holocaust?

863
00:48:18.440 --> 00:48:21.000
Thank you for sharing a part of your day with us,

864
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:24.159
and I hope you've been blessed and informed by what

865
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:28.280
doctor Dan has brought to the marketplace in order for

866
00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:31.559
us to think about is it, you know, can we

867
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:37.079
do something different? Can we save democracy? Can we As

868
00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.280
you've heard me talk before, I'm a firm believer in

869
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:43.800
a government of for by we the people, and we

870
00:48:43.880 --> 00:48:47.440
have been undermined in so many different ways. And what

871
00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:51.480
doctor Dan is bringing to the fore here is one

872
00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:54.760
just I think, a great idea that has potential. But

873
00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:56.760
it's not going to be anything that happens overnight. You

874
00:48:56.800 --> 00:48:58.559
know this. We've been working on this for almost two

875
00:48:58.639 --> 00:49:01.760
hundred and fifty years. But you know there is a

876
00:49:01.880 --> 00:49:06.000
time for you know, revolutionary ideas to come into I mean,

877
00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:11.440
forget about saving democracy. Let's really maximize our democracy and

878
00:49:11.480 --> 00:49:15.280
this great American idea that benefits all of us. So again,

879
00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:17.519
thank you for being with us, and God bless you.

880
00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:19.840
And may God bless you and keep you. May make

881
00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:22.800
His face shine upon you, May he be gracious unto

882
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:26.000
you and give you peace. Thanks again for being with us.

883
00:49:26.039 --> 00:49:26.960
Take care, God bless